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Thread: Pondering our current football status (Long, sorry)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg View Post
    Very good post Cadaver. It is definitely a conundrum feeing like we have achieved a level we all dreamed about and yet feeling that we have plateaued.

    As an eternal optimist and sunshine pumper - I?ll try to give you some hope.

    1) Dan is still a young coach. He has made many adjustments in his time here and seems willing to learn and grow (regardless of the Hev/Country Club criticism).
    2) some of the needed offensive adjustments are already being addressed. Think about this - Key is our first big time QB recruit. Assuming he can attack learning the system, he has the potential to shatter every record we have. By adding big time QB?s - you are seeing better receivers committing - they know they will get the damn ball. No offense to Dak or Fitz - but neither of them were going to draw big time WR to come with them as recruits. Guys like Key, Maden, etc will.
    3) We are using our resources wisely. We have money, and Cohen knows we need to spend on assistants to make us better. We saw it on D last year. I think we will see it more this off season.
    4) To make the next big step, I really think we need Dan to bring in or promote someone to OC and let them take the reigns. Dan can focus on big picture and QBs.

    We really aren?t that far off. But, the other big thing is someone needs to make Saban hang it up. He is strangling the SEC bit by bit.
    4 will never ever ever EVER happen. You can hang it up big fella

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsDawg View Post
    Dan has had one competitive game against bama in 8 tries and that was 2014, Dak's junior year. Bama had a mediocre QB in Sims and we had a veteran o-line. Bama's punter, our 1B defense, and Mullen's play calling in the 1st half cost us that game.

    1 other thing that is probably overlooked is really talented corners. That's something that LSU always has and that can really help you against teams like Bama and AU. We haven't signed a 4 star corner since Will Redmond.
    I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

    For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.

  3. #23
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Here is what Dan needs to say - “We work hard. You will work harder than you have in your life. You will be better prepared for life than any of your friends. If you do those things, you will have a career at the next level. Look at our 2 & 3 Star guys making big money in the NFL right now. And if you come here and do those things YOU could be the guy that makes us compete for championships. YOU could be they guy that writes his name in our history books.”

  4. #24
    Super Moderator CadaverDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckyIsAB**** View Post
    Not trying to be that guy but Heath is not going to come in and be Eric Moulds for us as a freshman. Hes a good player hopefully gonna be a great one but hes not the big 6-3 220 pound WRs yall are having wet dreams about. Guidry is a burner definite downfield threat but hes not Julio Jones. Dont know a whole lot about Jason to be honest.

    Hopefully Jason is a stud but at what point has Mullen ever thrown true freshman WRs or at any position for that matter into the fire. Kylin Hill is getting the most PT out of any true freshman I can remember under Dan. We have guys that can play there, Couch, Todd, Mitchell all are the big WRs we want. This is Todd and Mitchells first year of major college football. Give them time.

    We are never going to throw the ball around like Ole Miss does. We are however going to beat them and be better than them for a long time to come. I guess my point is, getting to Atlanta is going to be done on the OL and DL, running the football (setting up our passing game) and defense and special teams. Its the way this game has always been and it aint changing. Name the last team to win a title running the air raid and throwing it around all game. I'll wait
    Well if there is any position a first year player can come in and win a spot, it's WR for MSU right now.

    And nobody said we needed to go air raid, so not sure why you went there really...but being able to drop back and complete a few passes without having to rely on play action getting receivers wide open is something we need to be able to do.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaoarsking View Post
    I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

    For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.
    True. Good point.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckyIsAB**** View Post
    Hopefully Jason is a stud but at what point has Mullen ever thrown true freshman WRs or at any position for that matter into the fire. Kylin Hill is getting the most PT out of any true freshman I can remember under Dan. We have guys that can play there, Couch, Todd, Mitchell all are the big WRs we want. This is Todd and Mitchells first year of major college football. Give them time.

    We are never going to throw the ball around like Ole Miss does. We are however going to beat them and be better than them for a long time to come. I guess my point is, getting to Atlanta is going to be done on the OL and DL, running the football (setting up our passing game) and defense and special teams. Its the way this game has always been and it aint changing. Name the last team to win a title running the air raid and throwing it around all game. I'll wait
    Derunnya Wilson started as a true freshman. Dan plays the true freshman that are talented and ready. Hard truth is we haven't signed a ton of guys talented enough to play Day 1. Kylin, Willie Gay, and Key are all playing this year. Devonta Jason is talented enough to start from Day 1 and Dan will start him if we sign him.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CadaverDawg View Post
    Well if there is any position a first year player can come in and win a spot, it's WR for MSU right now.

    And nobody said we needed to go air raid, so not sure why you went there really...but being able to drop back and complete a few passes without having to rely on play action getting receivers wide open is something we need to be able to do.
    Fair point. I would argue that we have had chances in games to make the 50/50 plays but we havent won enough of them yet. Give the guys we have time and they will. Getting Myles back will help us, hopefully Couch does more of what we saw Saturday. I dont think Mullen trusts him though.

    But as far as a first year player coming in and getting a ton of snaps/targets? I dont see it happening. You are what you are at some point. Dan no like freshman playing.

    You can always rely on running the football and playing defense no matter who you play if you're good at it. Championship teams do

  8. #28
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    Mstate brought up Saban at mich state. Amazing how much better he has been at lsu and now bama. I'm sure it's because he matured. Yes, I agree he's gotten better and mastered the process but it's a hell of a lot easier to get studs at lsu and bama than mich state.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsDawg View Post
    Derunnya Wilson started as a true freshman. Dan plays the true freshman that are talented and ready. Hard truth is we haven't signed a ton of guys talented enough to play Day 1. Kylin, Willie Gay, and Key are all playing this year. Devonta Jason is talented enough to start from Day 1 and Dan will start him if we sign him.
    Key is playing mop up duty, Willie Gay is on special teams (which is great and very important) and mop up duty defense.

    As far as Bear Wilson playing you are right I forgot about skinny Bear

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homedawg View Post
    Mstate brought up Saban at mich state. Amazing how much better he has been at lsu and now bama. I'm sure it's because he matured. Yes, I agree he's gotten better and mastered the process but it's a hell of a lot easier to get studs at lsu and bama than mich state.
    Nobody is going to atlanta out of the west except bama for a long time. Auburn got lucky 2 years selling their soul to the devil

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaoarsking View Post
    I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

    For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.
    Yep youre right. Those Games were well played. We were within one score in 2013 and had the ball about their 30 in the second half. Unfortunately we had Damian at qb that whole game instead of Dak.

  12. #32
    Senior Member BorneDawg's Avatar
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    Ok help explain to me that our offense is so simple anyone can predict what we're gonna run but yet it's so complicated that it takes or players (rb) 2-3 years to learn to do it right and one of the reasons Dak transitioned to the pros so well is because our offense was so similar to the NFL.....

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaoarsking View Post
    I'm splitting hairs, but I would say we were competitive against Alabama in 2013 too. Lost 20-7 while turning the ball over on downs deep in Alabama territory twice in the 4th quarter. Had Dak not gotten hurt against A&M, we might have won it.

    For that matter, I think we were only down 14-7 at the half in 2011 and lost 24-7. Not that we ever threatened to win, but it wasn't an embarrassment like recent games have been.
    Those were come hardnosed ass defensive teams with NFL talent from front 7 to secondary

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckyIsAB**** View Post
    Key is playing mop up duty, Willie Gay is on special teams (which is great and very important) and mop up duty defense.

    As far as Bear Wilson playing you are right I forgot about skinny Bear
    Bumphis played as a freshman, Malik Dear, jamoral, theres been a few.

  15. #35
    Senior Member thf24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CadaverDawg View Post
    Good point, I agree.

    And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

    Just thought I'd share that for those interested. I will say this though, he has been extremely high on Mullen's recruiting. Says he and his staff have put in more work and been more effective than every team outside of the one he's committed to. So that's good news
    Many things I've heard along these lines about Mullen suggest to me that he's unwilling to make any recruiting promises that he isn't near certain he can keep. There's a lot to be said for that; much better than the other end of the spectrum of coaches like Butch Jones who tell every recruit who comes through their door whatever they want to hear, and end up with numerous incidents of mid-season attrition because you've made it impossible for yourself to keep everyone happy. However, I think Mullen is going to have to learn to embellish at least a little and paint a more optimistic picture if we're going to make the next step to the consistent top 20-15 class range where we need to be in order to compete for the division more than once in a blue moon.

  16. #36
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    Excellent thread CDawg, I always appreciate your opinions.

    I think you're spot on that Dan and co. will always beat teams we are more talented than (which is 4 SEC teams) and lose to the teams we are less talented than (which is 9 SEC teams, per 247 talent rankings). There's some wiggle room to account for other variables, like Coach O being a clown or OM having the backbone of a used condom. But all in all, we're a 7-9 win program. That's all. I want nothing more than to see us compete for championships, but until recruiting picks up, that just isn't going to happen.

    Some assorted thoughts I have:
    - I think our offense is great for being able to knock off better teams. Out-pro-styling Bama is an almost impossible task, their talent is way better. Not having to pander to 5* pro style QB recruits is nice too. We can make our hay with a spread offense with QB wrinkles. In short, for our recruiting vs. other teams' recruiting, I like that we don't run a traditional offense.
    - Some coaches are builders, and some are winners. Sometimes those coaches aren't the same people. Could Saban win the SEC within 5 years with MSU's roster? Probably not. We don't have enough talented personnel to do what he wants to do. Meanwhile, could Dan win a natty at Bama? Probably not. I don't think he's a big-game enough of a coach to make it happen. In fact, it's the reason he hasn't left MSU for a "better" program--other ADs think that about him too.
    - Dan won't be leaving any time soon. Fact of the matter is that he's a good coach who gets paid like a great coach. He's probably a top 25 coach but is paid inside the top 15. That presents a problem for another big school to pull him away--if you want to get Mullen, you're gonna have to shell out 5.5 million for a guy who hasn't really accomplished much except going to bowl games. For that reason, Dan is kinda in a career purgatory right now. I think he knows this: if he ever wants to move up and get paid more, he's gonna have to win more games.
    - Because of this last point, Dan has two options: (1) find a way to win big games and compete for the West, or (2) pack it in, go play golf, and make 4.5 million a year winning 6 games. I fear that he's more to the (2) side right now. And who would blame him? This isn't his fault. We are way overpaying him for his performance, because coaches have inflated market value, i.e., we have to pay him that just to get 6 wins and to keep him from going somewhere else.
    - As Dan is in a career purgatory, so is MSU. We are always gonna just be paying him way more money than he deserves to win 7 games a year. We're in a bad bargaining position--if we try to light a fire under his ass he can probably go somewhere else and get a few million. Instead we're just gonna have to pay him and shrug our shoulders at the results. Related point: legitimately, after coaching Dak and getting us to number 1, what would Dan have to do to get fired? We could miss a bowl game for four consecutive years and we'll just hear lectures on ED about how we're podunk MSU and need to accept our fate. If that happened Dan wouldn't get fired. This is a serious statement: I don't think Dan could get fired by MSU barring some moral incident.

    A lot of us complain about the country club atmosphere of our coaching staff, but our athletic department created that. We're the ones who gave Dan 4.5 million for getting us to consecutive bowl games. We created that atmosphere. The whole staff knows, just go to a bowl game and there won't ever be problems.

    All in all, I think we just have to settle for this. And I'm okay with that. If it means that Dan will win 7-8 games a year for over a decade, and then it's up to our next coach to try to take us to the next level, so be it. The blue hairs told me I need to be happy with that. In the meantime, I think all we can do is hope to fix the small things, like OL recruiting/scholly management and WR recruiting. I think we're already starting to see some of those things get a bit better.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Coach34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CadaverDawg View Post
    Good point, I agree.

    And on the recruiting note, let me tell you guys a story.....I work with the Dad of a big time 4 star recruit in an upcoming class. His son is committed to an SEC school despite saying he loves MSU & our coaches. When I asked him why he wouldn't choose MSU, he said it's because every time Dan & the coaches talk to his son or his 4-5 star buddies, he talks about "building" and "being better" but never talks about "trying to win a Championship". I know that sounds silly, but he said that's why we will not be signing his son or his son's good friend that is also a 4 star. They want to win a 'ship, or at least play for a team who plans on winning one...and despite their praise of Mullen and our atmosphere, they don't think Mullen sells us as a Championship contender, but more of a constant rebuild. And the guy told me, " I know Dan's just being real, but sometimes these kids need to hear that you're confident you can coach them in to winning it all, not just "building" on a mediocre to above average program".

    Just thought I'd share that for those interested. I will say this though, he has been extremely high on Mullen's recruiting. Says he and his staff have put in more work and been more effective than every team outside of the one he's committed to. So that's good news
    This is 100% it alot of times. We sell the "lunchpail mentality" to recruits. That doesnt fly with WR talent that are typical divas and crave attention.
    Walk like the King or walk like you don't care who the King is

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commercecomet24 View Post
    Bumphis played as a freshman, Malik Dear, jamoral, theres been a few.
    Jamoral Graham isnt even here anymore, Bump was a solid player, Dear wont play his natural position. We will never get the best out of malik dear, hate he got hurt but its just the truth. That said he could be helping us now. Hate he got hurt

  19. #39
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    well, here's an anonymous SEC coach quote from athlon's:

    "They’re kind of boring schematically when you really watch them and break them down. They don’t do a whole lot that concerns you. Mullen does a good job — it’s just not particularly creative. You’d play (Steve) Spurrier back in the day and he’d see something he’d like in the NFL on Sunday and you’d see it with him the following weekend. With Mullen, he kind of has his things he likes and that’s what he does. There’s no newness there."

    "They’re always just OK up front. They’re going to be physical, and that’s been their M.O. since he’s been there, but they’re not super talented."

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commercecomet24 View Post
    Bumphis played as a freshman, Malik Dear, jamoral, theres been a few.
    We only play the older guys, don't ass up a theory..........

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