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  1. #61
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer View Post
    These $ amounts are peanuts compared to elite Baseball and Hockey. The US team just lacks true game changing players, they have decent players. CONCACAF is a much better league than it has ever been. Panama, Costa Rica, and Honduras could beat anybody in the world. Honduras at home fights like tigers. Even Jamaica is ok.

    The only gimme games in CONCACAF are the tiny Caribbean resort islands. Team USA in 1990, 1998, and 2006 would not have qualified against this competition either.

    You mention ODP...ODP Sucks
    There is definitely some truth to this. Although the 2006 team would have easily qualified against this competition. I can't speak as much to the others, but I would imagine the 98 team was also definitely good enough. And this team, even with its issues should have easily qualified. CONCACAF has improved a good bit, but not that much. There is no excuse for finishing above only T&T in the hex.

    The strange irony in all this is that the MLS is aiding in keeping the US back to some degree, but it has also played a huge part in growing teams like CR, Honduras, and Panama.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgs View Post
    I mentioned head to head collisions and heat to elbow collisions in my previous post. I?m aware of how a majority of the concussions/head injuries occur in soccer. Hitting another head, an elbow, or the ground are far more likely to cause a concussion than heading a ball.

    Had guys hitting heads in 30-40% of the games is my point. In the nfl there are head to head (and head to ground and head to other body parts) hits on every play of every game. In soccer, it occurs like maybe 1-2 times per game in 30-40% of the games (according to you). If anything that makes the case why soccer is safer than football.
    The point remains that the lawyers will go after soccer once they tame or do away with football. Somehow we have set legal standards that there should be no danger in anything, and if there is and something happens it?s somebody else?s fault. That somebody else is usually someone or something with money.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    The point remains that the lawyers will go after soccer once they tame or do away with football. Somehow we have set legal standards that there should be no danger in anything, and if there is and something happens it?s somebody else?s fault. That somebody else is usually someone or something with money.
    “The lawyers”. Why don’t we wait and see what happens. The NFL actively hid research and information regarding head trauma and concussions from the players. That’s where they ****ed up. If they had been upfront and then worked to make the game safer years ago, then there wouldn’t be lawsuits and breaking news today. There is some acceptable level of danger, guys get concussions in all team sports. The difference is that in no other team sports do you have multiple hits to the head on literally every play. Football fundamentally is a game where head trauma has to occur. That’s way way way different from soccer, hockey, baseball, and basketball. In all those sports head trauma CAN occur and DOES occur, but not at the rates of football because every single play isn’t about hitting a guy across from you and knocking them to the ground.

  4. #64
    Senior Member War Machine Dawg's Avatar
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    Late to the party, but I'd like to chime in here. I'm pissed but somewhat unsurprised we didn't qualify. The team selection sucked and I was concerned when Arena said (true or not) before the Panama game that he hadn't even thought about the T&T match. We played like a team that hadn't been prepared for T&T.

    As far as improving the sport and talent pool, lots of good points already being made here. The whole "pay to play" system needs to be scrapped. I love Brunswick's idea for how to achieve relegation, but good luck pitching that to club owners who have invested a shit load of money into these MLS clubs. It needs to happen, but MLS & the money are dead against it. I'm also for more of our young players going to test themselves in Europe. I wish Jordan Morris had signed with Bremen instead of the Sounders. Why he didn't play a single minute of these last two hex games is beyond me, especially the T&T game. Deandre Yedlin is a prime example of a guy who has made major improvements by going to play overseas.

    One thing I haven't seen mentioned that I think needs to be discussed is how do we improve the access to soccer to kids in very rural areas. We're missing out on major talent when kids from places like Morton MS, Pinola MS, rural Alabama, rural Nebraska, etc. don't have the opportunity to play soccer. As it stands, those kids only see the "traditional American" sports - football, basketball, baseball - as their ticket out. We've got to get to a point where they see soccer as a viable option. We're missing freakish athletes who might not make it in those sports but could make it in soccer. I realize that in some ways it's not the athleticism that we're lacking, but it never hurts to have freaks of nature on the pitch. I just read an article recently about OBJ and if he'd chosen soccer over football. Imagine that dude spearheading our attacking talent with Pulisic.

    Anyway, just something I've been thinking about since the debacle. In some ways, while the size of our country is a great strength, it's also a great weakness. We've got to find a way to get kids, especially in rural areas, more involved with the sport.

    Finally, I'll just drop the link to the American Outlaws' statement on our failure to qualify and what should come next. I think they pretty much nail it. We all have to pitch in to help make the changes. Personally, I think I'll look into helping coach some sort of youth or HS soccer. It will be a commitment and require a lot of studying and effort on my end, but we each must start playing a part if we want the sport to grow here.

    Unite & Strengthen,

    WMD
    It's the roller coaster of hope that this program keeps us on that makes it hell being a State fan. - CadaverDawg, 10/15/22


  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgs View Post
    “The lawyers”. Why don’t we wait and see what happens. The NFL actively hid research and information regarding head trauma and concussions from the players. That’s where they ****ed up. If they had been upfront and then worked to make the game safer years ago, then there wouldn’t be lawsuits and breaking news today. There is some acceptable level of danger, guys get concussions in all team sports. The difference is that in no other team sports do you have multiple hits to the head on literally every play. Football fundamentally is a game where head trauma has to occur. That’s way way way different from soccer, hockey, baseball, and basketball. In all those sports head trauma CAN occur and DOES occur, but not at the rates of football because every single play isn’t about hitting a guy across from you and knocking them to the ground.
    I’ve seen some figures where soccer head issues are right up there with football. Perhaps what I saw was wrong. Why so defensive?

  6. #66
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg View Post
    One thing I haven't seen mentioned that I think needs to be discussed is how do we improve the access to soccer to kids in very rural areas. We're missing out on major talent when kids from places like Morton MS, Pinola MS, rural Alabama, rural Nebraska, etc. don't have the opportunity to play soccer. As it stands, those kids only see the "traditional American" sports - football, basketball, baseball - as their ticket out. We've got to get to a point where they see soccer as a viable option. We're missing freakish athletes who might not make it in those sports but could make it in soccer. I realize that in some ways it's not the athleticism that we're lacking, but it never hurts to have freaks of nature on the pitch. I just read an article recently about OBJ and if he'd chosen soccer over football. Imagine that dude spearheading our attacking talent with Pulisic.
    The youth movement to rural areas suffers from some the same issues that inner-city kids face. Economics, program availability, and transportation. It is something actually being addressed here locally by one of our own - Darius Slay. He helps fund this program started by his cousin http://www.coastaloutreachsoccer.com...x?tabid=395369 and uses soccer as the cornerstone of his afterschool program. Morgan Brian from the USWNT is from here and also has been involved some.

    For a small city, we are lucky to have produced some high profile athletes who are giving back to the community through kids programs - Slay, Brian, Adam Wainwright, Kwame Brown, and Davis Love III all step up whenever asked.

  7. #67
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    For a bit of good news...the U17 USMNT has advanced from group play in the U17 world cup.

  8. #68
    Senior Member War Machine Dawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumbo View Post
    For a bit of good news...the U17 USMNT has advanced from group play in the U17 world cup.
    I DVR'd the match so I can watch it this afternoon after I get home from work. Didn't even realize U17 WC was happening until I read the AO statement. Eager to see how the kids look.
    It's the roller coaster of hope that this program keeps us on that makes it hell being a State fan. - CadaverDawg, 10/15/22


  9. #69
    Senior Member War Machine Dawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg View Post
    The youth movement to rural areas suffers from some the same issues that inner-city kids face. Economics, program availability, and transportation. It is something actually being addressed here locally by one of our own - Darius Slay. He helps fund this program started by his cousin http://www.coastaloutreachsoccer.com...x?tabid=395369 and uses soccer as the cornerstone of his afterschool program. Morgan Brian from the USWNT is from here and also has been involved some.

    For a small city, we are lucky to have produced some high profile athletes who are giving back to the community through kids programs - Slay, Brian, Adam Wainwright, Kwame Brown, and Davis Love III all step up whenever asked.
    No doubt. But like I said, we've got to find some way of addressing the problem. I think JR High & HS soccer might be part of the answer, but that's pretty late for kids to be starting. Honestly, it's just something that came to my mind and would like to see discussed. I don't expect "us" here on ED to solve the issue. A whole lot of people who are smarter than me haven't figured out a way yet. Just an obvious, glaring issue I see. If it could ever be addressed, we'd unlock an insanely large talent pool.
    It's the roller coaster of hope that this program keeps us on that makes it hell being a State fan. - CadaverDawg, 10/15/22


  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg View Post
    I DVR'd the match so I can watch it this afternoon after I get home from work. Didn't even realize U17 WC was happening until I read the AO statement. Eager to see how the kids look.


    my bad....*spoiler alert*

  11. #71
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg View Post
    No doubt. But like I said, we've got to find some way of addressing the problem. I think JR High & HS soccer might be part of the answer, but that's pretty late for kids to be starting. Honestly, it's just something that came to my mind and would like to see discussed. I don't expect "us" here on ED to solve the issue. A whole lot of people who are smarter than me haven't figured out a way yet. Just an obvious, glaring issue I see. If it could ever be addressed, we'd unlock an insanely large talent pool.
    What? ED can solve everything. We have experts so good they can out coach anyone.***

  12. #72
    Super Moderator CadaverDawg's Avatar
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    Well as a guy that is trying hard to get into soccer more & more, I think the USMNT better get this shit fixed & figured out going forward, bc I've got enough disappointing teams I pull for in other sports, so they run the risk of losing all of the people that are trying to get into soccer if they fall on their faces again after this big setback.

    We're used to being the best in this country....so I don't see support continuing to grow if US men's soccer remains a stinker after this.

    In other words...it feels like soccer fandom in this country is at an all time high, so I really hope we didn't miss out on a huge opportunity to propel things forward while interest is high.
    Last edited by CadaverDawg; 10-12-2017 at 02:10 PM.

  13. #73
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    Who dem lawyers gonna sue, Starkville Youth Soccer Organizations around the country. The only nation that would entertain the trial would be the USA and there is nobody big to pillage in the US. Alabama Football (by it self) makes more money than all MLS.

    The real prize for head issues is internet Porn. Widespread ED, broken homes, unfulfilled potential, human trafficking, predators of poor women, and degradation of women. Lookup billionaire Fabian Theilmann (sp?) free internet porn actually has a Cappo di Cappos.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg View Post
    No doubt. But like I said, we've got to find some way of addressing the problem. I think JR High & HS soccer might be part of the answer, but that's pretty late for kids to be starting. Honestly, it's just something that came to my mind and would like to see discussed. I don't expect "us" here on ED to solve the issue. A whole lot of people who are smarter than me haven't figured out a way yet. Just an obvious, glaring issue I see. If it could ever be addressed, we'd unlock an insanely large talent pool.
    It’s about retaining the kids that play soccer when they are 5-6 years old but stop to play other sports as they get older. A lot of that has to do with the parents kinda pushing kids to other sports. I know I played soccer as a kid but In the 80s it wasn’t on tv, we didn’t have the internet to stream games, I watched baseball, football, and basketball with my dad, so that’s what I wanted to play. By the time soccer was on tv, mls became semi-relevant, the internet allows us to stream any game in the world, my generation was too old to start playing soccer with any skill. However people around my age are far more into soccer than our parents were, and a lot of them have kids <10 years old that play sports, and these parents have soccer on tv at home and they push their kids to keep playing, so I think you will see more participation all the way up through the ranks including junior high and high school, you are increasing the talent pool, which makes for more competition and better players. It just takes years to happen.

    People say “oh people have claimed soccer is the next big thing for 30 years” like there should’ve been an overnight transition. But you have to wait 15+ years to see the fruits of planting a seed today. In 1994, guys like Landon Donovan, Clint Dempsey, and Tim Howard were kids watching the WC. And they formed the core of the most successful run of US soccer at the international level, but we had to wait years to see it. The problem was after the WC, we didn’t properly invest in growing the game from the ground up for the rest of the 90s, and now we have a lost generation. Between the old guys and the young guy, the generation that should be in their prime is shit. I think the younger generation (pulisic, yedlin, the U-17 team) is a result of MLS finding its footing and USA soccer doing a better (not great but better) job of developing talent in the 00s, and we are just starting to see the guys who were kids in the early and mid 00s start to get to the age of playing professionally and internationally.

  15. #75
    Senior Member War Machine Dawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgs View Post
    It’s about retaining the kids that play soccer when they are 5-6 years old but stop to play other sports as they get older. A lot of that has to do with the parents kinda pushing kids to other sports. I know I played soccer as a kid but In the 80s it wasn’t on tv, we didn’t have the internet to stream games, I watched baseball, football, and basketball with my dad, so that’s what I wanted to play. By the time soccer was on tv, mls became semi-relevant, the internet allows us to stream any game in the world, my generation was too old to start playing soccer with any skill. However people around my age are far more into soccer than our parents were, and a lot of them have kids <10 years old that play sports, and these parents have soccer on tv at home and they push their kids to keep playing, so I think you will see more participation all the way up through the ranks including junior high and high school, you are increasing the talent pool, which makes for more competition and better players. It just takes years to happen.

    People say “oh people have claimed soccer is the next big thing for 30 years” like there should’ve been an overnight transition. But you have to wait 15+ years to see the fruits of planting a seed today. In 1994, guys like Landon Donovan, Clint Dempsey, and Tim Howard were kids watching the WC. And they formed the core of the most successful run of US soccer at the international level, but we had to wait years to see it. The problem was after the WC, we didn’t properly invest in growing the game from the ground up for the rest of the 90s, and now we have a lost generation. Between the old guys and the young guy, the generation that should be in their prime is shit. I think the younger generation (pulisic, yedlin, the U-17 team) is a result of MLS finding its footing and USA soccer doing a better (not great but better) job of developing talent in the 00s, and we are just starting to see the guys who were kids in the early and mid 00s start to get to the age of playing professionally and internationally.
    Lots of good points here. I completely agree about the visibility of soccer now being a benefit. NBC & Fox have the EPL & Bundesliga respectively, which gives us a quality game virtually every weekend of the year. Then add the availability of streams on the internet and soccer is more visible than ever for kids. There's even talk of Facebook & Amazon bidding for the rights to stream soccer (likely the EPL). That's only going to help kids think of soccer as a viable alternative with the "Big 3."

    Completely agree about it taking time and the gap in our talent pool right now. Like Taylor Twellman pointed out, the guys who are 24-28 that should be the core of this team were virtually non-existent. That said, we still should have seen a youth movement. Many of us were screaming for the program to get younger 2-3 years ago when Klinsmann was still in charge. There's no reason guys like Kellyn Acosta, Jordan Morris, Julian Green, Deandre Yedlin, etc. shouldn't have been the core of this group along with Pulisic. They might not have qualified either, but at least they'd be gaining real experience that would pay off down the road.

    MLS is definitely improving. While it may still be seen as the "retirement league," the fact is that MLS has quietly frowned upon spending DP money to bring in the aging superstars, outside of special cases, for the last several years. They're encouraging teams to spend the money on young, promising talent. Some clubs like Atlanta United have embraced it. If MLS continues bringing in players like Josef Martinez, Miguel Almiron, Hector Villalba, the Dos Santos brothers in LA, etc., the league is going to really improve. Like many, I'd still love to see some form of relegation implemented, but I'm too cynical to think it happens any time soon. Too much money is against it, whether it's good for the league or not. Plus MLS themselves have been ruthless in stamping out any form of second tier "competitive" leagues like the NASL.

    Agree about the pool of really young U-18 talent. I'm excited to see players like Cameron Carter-Vickers join the senior team. The thought of Matt Miazga/Carter-Vickers pairing John Brooks in the back should make all USMNT happy. That's potentially as good a combo as you'll see in the international game outside of the top European teams. The real issue is developing attacking talent. That's the big area we need improvement.
    It's the roller coaster of hope that this program keeps us on that makes it hell being a State fan. - CadaverDawg, 10/15/22


  16. #76
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Good points Dawgs and WMD -

    This doesn't address youth development directly - but there is a huge hole in how USSF has set up the league systems and have stifled the organic growth of professional teams. By not having a real tiered system of leagues and relegation, there is absolutely nothing to play for if you aren't an MLS franchise. There are some really good NASL and USL teams that by all rights should have been able to work their way up to MLS. Instead, MLS tries to undercut successful clubs like Miami, Detroit, Atlanta or NY Cosmos by shutting them out or locating expansion franchises in their cities. This kills the organic growth of teams via player development and more importantly fan base development - and sours local support for new clubs. Atlanta is one of the few cities where this hasn't caused a problem in some of the more recent expansion efforts. Read up on what is going on in Detroit right now with Detroit City FC vs. MLS right now.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer View Post
    These $ amounts are peanuts compared to elite Baseball and Hockey. The US team just lacks true game changing players, they have decent players. CONCACAF is a much better league than it has ever been. Panama, Costa Rica, and Honduras could beat anybody in the world. Honduras at home fights like tigers. Even Jamaica is ok.

    The only gimme games in CONCACAF are the tiny Caribbean resort islands. Team USA in 1990, 1998, and 2006 would not have qualified against this competition either.

    You mention ODP...ODP Sucks

    So much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start. The only team that will make it out of their group in the WC from Concacaf will be Mexico, unless Costa Rica is in a weak group or Keylor Navas plays like he did in 2014. There is absolutely no excuse for the US not to qualify as second at worst in Concacaf- this year or for the next ten. Outside of Asia, Concacaf is far inferior to any other region. Absolutely no excuse.
    Last edited by DudyDawg; 10-13-2017 at 10:29 AM.

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