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  1. #41
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    Soccer is basically the working class game everywhere but North America. Here, as you pointed out, it’s a game of the middle class, with the better players tending to come from the upper middle because they are the only ones who can afford the travel teams. Until that changes we won’t produce much top notch talent.
    As I've always said, the US will compete for World Cups the day that soccer goals are mounted underneath the baskets on New York and Chicago playgrounds

    IMO, soccer must be played in small spaces in a creative environment. The US model is the opposite.

    The US is the best in basketball because the development model is about creativity and is a playground sport. The US used to have this in baseball with inner city stick ball. Now the Dominican has that type of development

  2. #42
    Senior Member WeWonItAll(Most)'s Avatar
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    This has probably already been talked about, but we need to quit pretending the MLS is doing an adequate job developing players. The best MLS team is the equivalent of a pretty good 3rd tier team in the English pyramid (in my opinion).

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeWonItAll(Most) View Post
    This has probably already been talked about, but we need to quit pretending the MLS is doing an adequate job developing players. The best MLS team is the equivalent of a pretty good 3rd tier team in the English pyramid (in my opinion).
    Yep.

  4. #44
    Senior Member WeWonItAll(Most)'s Avatar
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    Another thought: I feel the media needs to start holding the actual players on the team responsible for results on the field. The sports media's relationship with the team is too friendly and rah-rah. It's always Klinsman's fault, or Gulati's fault, or Arena's fault. It's never the player's fault that they can't go out and consistantly handle business against the likes of Trinidad & Tobago and Honduras.

    Look at how Alexi Lalas's criticism of the team was handled a few months ago. The fact it took us being outside of the top 3 six or seven games into a 10 game group stage before anyone began criticizing the team was ridiculous in and of itself. Then when someone finally start directing criticism at the team, he's largely made fun of (it was somewhat corny) and his points marginalized.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by smootness View Post
    If you think the problem with US soccer is that it isn't tough or physical enough, then I don't know what to tell you. The problem is that we don't have enough creative talent, and our touch still lags way behind the rest of the world.

    And the problem isn't really that we haven't sent people abroad. We had an entire generation (4-5 years) that didn't develop, for whatever reason, and it is killing us. Klinsmann had a lot of great ideas about soccer development in the US, and the good thing is that we're starting to see the benefits at the 15-year-old to 20-year-old level. We have some legit talent there, and some of these guys are already starting to break through at legit programs across the world.

    I am not a fan of Arena, but this is not his fault. This team just wasn't good. Period. Sure, they should have been better than they were, but the talent itself wasn't good enough. John Brooks being out hurt, because it also meant we weren't comfortable with Cameron on the back line. Bradley has declined and is no longer good enough to control things in the middle, and we have essentially no other controlling center midfielders we can turn to. Nagbe is not good enough to be starting for the US national team.

    It is time to commit 100% to a youth movement. I don't want to see guys like Dempsey, Nagbe, Gonzalez, Besler, etc. ever play for the US again, and I don't care if Bradley ever does again. This is Pulisic's team; Altidore and Wood are fine up top, but it is time to start getting these young guys caps with the senior national team, even if they're really too young right now. Emerson Hyndman, Weston McKennie, Josh Sargent...they need to be playing now. And yes, guys like Kellyn Acosta do need to leave MLS.
    Good post. I was telling someone last night we are kinda in between generations. Our best talent is all 30+ or <22. Somehow we ****ed up in between big time and that?s what brought the team down. I?m not familiar with who is coming down the pipeline, but everything I?ve read is the U-17 team is loaded. This team wasn?t gonna do shit in Russia anyway, but it would?ve been nice to get pulisic and a couple other young guys experience. But maybe this triggers a revamping of the USMNT. I think the system in place now is definitely better than it?s ever been, but it takes time for the talent to work their way up from pre-teens and teens to being world class soccer players. We need to update our style of play and turn over the roster to the young talent now. Give them 5 years to gel and develop and gear up for 2022.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lambert View Post
    What I don't get is when soccer comes up the pro soccer guys feel they have to go out of their way to defend it. When someone says something negative about soccer they get all offended. Just look at some of the post in this thread.

    In the US soccer will always be viewed like the Olympics. Every four years everyone will get excited and then they forget. It will never change. I am indifferent about it. I will watch World Cup when the US is in it. Just because I can. Got something to pull for. After that the only soccer I will see is from the road passing by the soccer field.

    If someone likes it fine and if not that is fine as well. There is a lot of sports I don't watch and to be honest I would watch Soccer before NBA, NFL and MLB if that is all I have to choose from. You know I don't like volley ball but will turn the channel every time to watch women beach volley ball. "That gives me something else to pull"
    There?s millions of people who don?t view US soccer like the olympics though. Maybe you do, but the number of people who don?t treat it like the olympics grows every day, and to deny that is sticking your head in the sand because you don?t like it or get it.
    Last edited by dawgs; 10-11-2017 at 11:37 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    Soccer is basically the working class game everywhere but North America. Here, as you pointed out, it?s a game of the middle class, with the better players tending to come from the upper middle because they are the only ones who can afford the travel teams. Until that changes we won?t produce much top notch talent.
    When youth football and junior high/high school football starts disappearing due to insurance premiums and liability, something is going to fill the void, and imo soccer stands to be the biggest gainer in talent.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgs View Post
    When youth football and junior high/high school football starts disappearing due to insurance premiums and liability, something is going to fill the void, and imo soccer stands to be the biggest gainer in talent.
    They will just start in soccer then, lots of concussions in soccer. It already has start d in fact, many youth leagues ban headers.

  9. #49
    Senior Member mstatefan91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lambert View Post
    What I don't get is when soccer comes up the pro soccer guys feel they have to go out of their way to defend it. When someone says something negative about soccer they get all offended. Just look at some of the post in this thread.

    In the US soccer will always be viewed like the Olympics. Every four years everyone will get excited and then they forget. It will never change. I am indifferent about it. I will watch World Cup when the US is in it. Just because I can. Got something to pull for. After that the only soccer I will see is from the road passing by the soccer field.

    If someone likes it fine and if not that is fine as well. There is a lot of sports I don't watch and to be honest I would watch Soccer before NBA, NFL and MLB if that is all I have to choose from. You know I don't like volley ball but will turn the channel every time to watch women beach volley ball. "That gives me something else to pull"
    That's perfectly fine. It annoys the pro-soccer guys when the negative soccer guys wish for its death. That's not indifference.
    LFC YNWA

  10. #50
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    USSF needs to clean house from top to bottom. Get rid of Sunil, Bruce, and any player that is not 100% committed every time they put on the red white and blue.

    There is zero excuse for the US no to qualify for the WC every single time given the teams we play against in qualifying.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    They will just start in soccer then, lots of concussions in soccer. It already has start d in fact, many youth leagues ban headers.
    Difference is that it’s easy to eliminate headers from youth leagues. And science shows repeated banging of the head is as destructive as the major concussions, like OL don’t have some major head shot like a WR might take, but they still have brain damage. You don’t have guys hanging heads 60+ times per game in soccer. I also watch a fair amount of soccer and I’ve never seen a stumbling around or react like Luke kuechly did last year after a header. But you seen that multiple times a weekend watching football. I’ve only seen a couple of times where an elbow or another head collides with a player’s head and he reacted similarly to the way football players act after major concussions many times every weekend. Finally, the whole premise of football leads to banging heads. The whole premise of soccer does not lead to head to head or head to elbow contact, just as basketball doesn’t inherently lead to elbow to head contact in boxing out situations or baseball doesn’t inherently lead to taking a thrown or hit ball off the head.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgs View Post
    Difference is that it’s easy to eliminate headers from youth leagues. And science shows repeated banging of the head is as destructive as the major concussions, like OL don’t have some major head shot like a WR might take, but they still have brain damage. You don’t have guys hanging heads 60+ times per game in soccer. I also watch a fair amount of soccer and I’ve never seen a stumbling around or react like Luke kuechly did last year after a header. But you seen that multiple times a weekend watching football. I’ve only seen a couple of times where an elbow or another head collides with a player’s head and he reacted similarly to the way football players act after major concussions many times every weekend. Finally, the whole premise of football leads to banging heads. The whole premise of soccer does not lead to head to head or head to elbow contact, just as basketball doesn’t inherently lead to elbow to head contact in boxing out situations or baseball doesn’t inherently lead to taking a thrown or hit ball off the head.
    You must not watch the right leagues.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    You must not watch the right leagues.
    Show me a list of soccer players stumbling around like they are about 8 shots of tequila deep right after a header each weekend and we’ll see how it compares to football players doing the same. I’m not saying it never happens, but you just don’t see it happen all that often in soccer, yet I see it a couple times per weekend in college and nfl games and I don’t even watch all that much football these days.

  14. #54
    Senior Member Maroonthirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    They will just start in soccer then, lots of concussions in soccer. It already has start d in fact, many youth leagues ban headers.
    US youth soccer instituted rules a few years ago that U11 and under can't head.

    As for the guy mentioning small sided games are a problem. No, small sided games help more players get more touches . Typically with kids under 8, they don't know how to spread out and it is just a cluster of 22 players fighting for a ball. Small sided games help eliminate that.

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    Senior Member Maroonthirteen's Avatar
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    Clay Travis nails it. Listen to 1-15 minutes. (Sorry about his OCD about comments section around minute 4-5)

    https://www.facebook.com/OutkickTheC...5257784832042/

  16. #56
    Senior Member Maroonthirteen's Avatar
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    speaking of the development of young players, the pool for players in the US is small because of the way the Olympic Development Program is set up.

    To have the skills necessary to play ODP soccer and eventually ascend to the USNT, a player will have to been trained at a Local Soccer club. My experience with rec soccer is that most
    Of The coaches have no clue. They don't teach fundamentals (proper dribbling, trapping, striking the ball). They teach wrong tactics. They put their backs on the 18 and tell them to stay there. Etc etc.

    So to get the coaching necessary to be an ODP and keep Up with all the other kids, you have to play club soccer. This will cost parents anywhere from $1000-$2000 per year depending on how much their particular team travels. Once a player has been trained properly, they can attend their state tryouts for ODP. If you make your state ODP team, this will cost you a few hundred bucks in fees and about another $700 mid summer if you want to go to ODP camp. If you make it to a regional team, the expenses go up.

    I don't know if it will work but US Youth Soccer will need a boat load of sponsorship money to fund inner city and rural leagues with proper coaching that could train a larger pool of kids to prepare them for ODP and fund those less fortunate kids all the way through the ODP program.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgs View Post
    Show me a list of soccer players stumbling around like they are about 8 shots of tequila deep right after a header each weekend and we’ll see how it compares to football players doing the same. I’m not saying it never happens, but you just don’t see it happen all that often in soccer, yet I see it a couple times per weekend in college and nfl games and I don’t even watch all that much football these days.
    It's not just headers. It's the clash of heads going for headers. It happens in 30-40% of the games I watch from England at least once.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    It's not just headers. It's the clash of heads going for headers. It happens in 30-40% of the games I watch from England at least once.
    I mentioned head to head collisions and heat to elbow collisions in my previous post. I’m aware of how a majority of the concussions/head injuries occur in soccer. Hitting another head, an elbow, or the ground are far more likely to cause a concussion than heading a ball.

    Had guys hitting heads in 30-40% of the games is my point. In the nfl there are head to head (and head to ground and head to other body parts) hits on every play of every game. In soccer, it occurs like maybe 1-2 times per game in 30-40% of the games (according to you). If anything that makes the case why soccer is safer than football.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maroonthirteen View Post
    speaking of the development of young players, the pool for players in the US is small because of the way the Olympic Development Program is set up.

    To have the skills necessary to play ODP soccer and eventually ascend to the USNT, a player will have to been trained at a Local Soccer club. My experience with rec soccer is that most
    Of The coaches have no clue. They don't teach fundamentals (proper dribbling, trapping, striking the ball). They teach wrong tactics. They put their backs on the 18 and tell them to stay there. Etc etc.

    So to get the coaching necessary to be an ODP and keep Up with all the other kids, you have to play club soccer. This will cost parents anywhere from $1000-$2000 per year depending on how much their particular team travels. Once a player has been trained properly, they can attend their state tryouts for ODP. If you make your state ODP team, this will cost you a few hundred bucks in fees and about another $700 mid summer if you want to go to ODP camp. If you make it to a regional team, the expenses go up.

    I don't know if it will work but US Youth Soccer will need a boat load of sponsorship money to fund inner city and rural leagues with proper coaching that could train a larger pool of kids to prepare them for ODP and fund those less fortunate kids all the way through the ODP program.
    These $ amounts are peanuts compared to elite Baseball and Hockey. The US team just lacks true game changing players, they have decent players. CONCACAF is a much better league than it has ever been. Panama, Costa Rica, and Honduras could beat anybody in the world. Honduras at home fights like tigers. Even Jamaica is ok.

    The only gimme games in CONCACAF are the tiny Caribbean resort islands. Team USA in 1990, 1998, and 2006 would not have qualified against this competition either.

    You mention ODP...ODP Sucks
    Last edited by The Federalist Engineer; 10-12-2017 at 12:33 AM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer View Post
    These $ amounts are peanuts compared to elite Baseball and Hockey. The US team just lacks true game changing players, they have decent players. CONCACAF is a much better league than it has ever been. Panama, Costa Rica, and Honduras could beat anybody in the world. Honduras at home fights like tigers. Even Jamaica is ok.

    The only gimme games in CONCACAF are the tiny Caribbean resort islands. Team USA in 1990, 1998, and 2006 would not have qualified against this competition either.

    You mention ODP...ODP Sucks
    By “tiny Caribbean resort islands”, you basically mean Trinidad and Tobago?

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