Interesting Discussion On Cheating

[ShotgunDawg]

Outside of the top 11 recruiting programs (Bama, USC, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Georgia, Florida, Florida State, LSU, Oklahoma, & Auburn) do you think it's possible for anyone else to cheat at the level Ole Miss did and get away with it?

FWIW, Clemson is a top 11 program currently, but I don't consider them a top 11 "recruiting program"

It's been said that OM was just "sloppy" but when cheating at that level, how can you not get sloppy at some point and allow minor things to slip through the cracks?

Sure, they were able to effectively cover up major cash payments to many players on their team, but they couldn't manage the minor details that got them caught.

When managing that much cheating, how would any program not make mistakes?

The top 11 recruiting programs have fortunate position of getting the benefit of the doubt and thus, either don't need to cheat at that level or don't have enough people looking over their shoulder in an effort to discover the sloppy details.

[tireddawg]

Paying players can be done successfully. The coaches just have to stay out of it. Also the entire athletic dept can't be involved either. Just boosters and a fall guy on the inside. And no hookers.
As someone else on here said, I don't think it was sloppiness, I think it was arrogance.
Big programs do cheat. To what level? Probably would surprise us.

ETA: I'm not an advocate for cheating. I think we've got the right coach and I like the way Dan is building the program & hope we have him for years to come. I think with 2-3 more studs per year, in 3-4 years we could make the playoffs and compete for a title. Dan is quite possibly the greatest QB evaluator and developer in the country, most def the SEC. A few studs on the O-line, WR, & D, keep doing what he's doin, & the sky's the limit. We may be closer than we realize.

[bostondawg]

Not that high consistently IMO. And there aren't many outliers to this point--Stanford #7 in 2012, maybe.

Overall, I don't think you can regularly push into the top 12 without people asking questions, or without winning a lot of football games first (Clemson is starting to be able to do this with recruiting--it's obviously taken a while to get to that point). Hell, I don't even think MSU could get a 5* without justifications, else people would point fingers. Justifications would be: he's from MS, he's a legacy, he's a QB and Dan has earned that respect, etc.

Perhaps more importantly, however, is that a school like MSU doesn't need to recruit at that level. Dan is the second best coach in the SEC. Also, let's be honest, coaching in the SEC isn't great anymore. Saban has pushed everyone out. If MSU could consistently land the #15 class, with a star QB, we could compete for the SEC west I believe. In two years, besides Saban, who's in the way? Ed Orgeron? Bielema? Whatever D3 coach Ole Miss has? The soon-to-be-vacant spots at Auburn and TAMU? Does that scare absolutely anyone? We could have a few years of placing second in the SEC West before Saban retires. And after that, who knows.

Obviously, those are some maroon-tinted glasses. But Dan has already placed 2nd in the west with a team that had a 4-year recruiting average of around 30. If we could average 15, with great QB play and not neglect recruiting the WR or OL positions, we could take the next step.

[QuadrupleOption]

Not that high consistently IMO. And there aren't many outliers to this point--Stanford #7 in 2012, maybe.

Overall, I don't think you can regularly push into the top 12 without people asking questions, or without winning a lot of football games first (Clemson is starting to be able to do this with recruiting--it's obviously taken a while to get to that point). Hell, I don't even think MSU could get a 5* without justifications, else people would point fingers. Justifications would be: he's from MS, he's a legacy, he's a QB and Dan has earned that respect, etc.

Perhaps more importantly, however, is that a school like MSU doesn't need to recruit at that level. Dan is the second best coach in the SEC. Also, let's be honest, coaching in the SEC isn't great anymore. Saban has pushed everyone out. If MSU could consistently land the #15 class, with a star QB, we could compete for the SEC west I believe. In two years, besides Saban, who's in the way? Ed Orgeron? Bielema? Whatever D3 coach Ole Miss has? The soon-to-be-vacant spots at Auburn and TAMU? Does that scare absolutely anyone? We could have a few years of placing second in the SEC West before Saban retires. And after that, who knows.

Obviously, those are some maroon-tinted glasses. But Dan has already placed 2nd in the west with a team that had a 4-year recruiting average of around 30. If we could average 15, with great QB play and not neglect recruiting the WR or OL positions, we could take the next step.

It's what I've been saying for years while some folks on this very board have been bemoaning how many players Ole Miss has gotten. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You have to build it up over time, and Dan, for all his perceived faults, has done just that. We're getting better on the recruiting front every year. We're getting players that other people want, and we're developing lower-rated raw talent into good players that go on to the NFL. Recruits see that, and over time it moves from 'flash in the pan' to 'that's what MSU does'. Mullen's going into his 9th season. Rising seniors have pretty much only known Mullen as MSU's coach, and he's starting to get props from national media instead of being mentioned for every vacancy in the country.

We're close, people. Real close.

[Mobile Bay]

It's what I've been saying for years while some folks on this very board have been bemoaning how many players Ole Miss has gotten. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You have to build it up over time, and Dan, for all his perceived faults, has done just that. We're getting better on the recruiting front every year. We're getting players that other people want, and we're developing lower-rated raw talent into good players that go on to the NFL. Recruits see that, and over time it moves from 'flash in the pan' to 'that's what MSU does'. Mullen's going into his 9th season. Rising seniors have pretty much only known Mullen as MSU's coach, and he's starting to get props from national media instead of being mentioned for every vacancy in the country.

We're close, people. Real close.

There was a time when Bama, Oklahoma, Michigan et al were not storied programs with a long tradition of winning. None of them got there in three years. It takes time, dedication, and decades to build a truly great program. Will we get to that level, I don't know. But I do know we won't get there flipping coaches every three or four years like some programs do.

[Howboutdemdogs]

I believe that credibility has to built over time with a firm foundation. You can't build a sturdy house on sand. Once the program claws itself into the national scene, it becomes more attractive to perspective students. But, it has to be done the right way. Short cuts and lies will destroy anything over time, and the bright lights will dim real quick.

[Political Hack]

It's what I've been saying for years while some folks on this very board have been bemoaning how many players Ole Miss has gotten. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You have to build it up over time, and Dan, for all his perceived faults, has done just that. We're getting better on the recruiting front every year. We're getting players that other people want, and we're developing lower-rated raw talent into good players that go on to the NFL. Recruits see that, and over time it moves from 'flash in the pan' to 'that's what MSU does'. Mullen's going into his 9th season. Rising seniors have pretty much only known Mullen as MSU's coach, and he's starting to get props from national media instead of being mentioned for every vacancy in the country.

We're close, people. Real close.

And he's got the QBs in the stable to make it happen.

[Todd4State]

Not that high consistently IMO. And there aren't many outliers to this point--Stanford #7 in 2012, maybe.

Overall, I don't think you can regularly push into the top 12 without people asking questions, or without winning a lot of football games first (Clemson is starting to be able to do this with recruiting--it's obviously taken a while to get to that point). Hell, I don't even think MSU could get a 5* without justifications, else people would point fingers. Justifications would be: he's from MS, he's a legacy, he's a QB and Dan has earned that respect, etc.

Perhaps more importantly, however, is that a school like MSU doesn't need to recruit at that level. Dan is the second best coach in the SEC. Also, let's be honest, coaching in the SEC isn't great anymore. Saban has pushed everyone out. If MSU could consistently land the #15 class, with a star QB, we could compete for the SEC west I believe. In two years, besides Saban, who's in the way? Ed Orgeron? Bielema? Whatever D3 coach Ole Miss has? The soon-to-be-vacant spots at Auburn and TAMU? Does that scare absolutely anyone? We could have a few years of placing second in the SEC West before Saban retires. And after that, who knows.

Obviously, those are some maroon-tinted glasses. But Dan has already placed 2nd in the west with a team that had a 4-year recruiting average of around 30. If we could average 15, with great QB play and not neglect recruiting the WR or OL positions, we could take the next step.

Great post. To beat a dead horse, I think the biggest thing that we need to step up on to get to that level is o-line recruiting. Dan is good, but we have to win the battle in the trenches to take that next step. Getting 1-2 three star o-linemen isn't going to help us get there. I really think we have the DC to help us get there and I really like Boniol as a kicking guru. Boniol is going to really pay off for us in a couple of years and is landing Army All-American kickers.

I think we will still see some flaws this year- like the small WR's and a shaky kicking game- but I think by 2018 most of those issues will be resolved.

[Todd4State]

Outside of the top 11 recruiting programs (Bama, USC, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Georgia, Florida, Florida State, LSU, Oklahoma, & Auburn) do you think it's possible for anyone else to cheat at the level Ole Miss did and get away with it?

FWIW, Clemson is a top 11 program currently, but I don't consider them a top 11 "recruiting program"

It's been said that OM was just "sloppy" but when cheating at that level, how can you not get sloppy at some point and allow minor things to slip through the cracks?

Sure, they were able to effectively cover up major cash payments to many players on their team, but they couldn't manage the minor details that got them caught.

When managing that much cheating, how would any program not make mistakes?

The top 11 recruiting programs have fortunate position of getting the benefit of the doubt and thus, either don't need to cheat at that level or don't have enough people looking over their shoulder in an effort to discover the sloppy details.

I think some of the problem with Ole Miss was not only did they get too big too fast- they rubbed it in everyone's face. It just wasn't believable to start with and then on top of that to try to sell people that it was because of their super-Christian head coach and beautiful campus just makes it laughable.

Cheating is part of their culture- and it's something that their boosters take pride in. It's a status symbol for them..."look how big of a booster I am! I'm in the NOA!"

On top of all of that they tend to burn people once they are done using them. Like Houston Nutt- which is why the escorts came to light in the first place. Most people don't love Ole Miss so much that they are OK with having their careers ruined to the point where they are working in a Taco Bell for a living.

[dawgs]

Rule of thumb when chaytin': don't go land a top 5 class and the #1 player had 3 different positions, all from out of state, when you are coming off a rough couple years and with a HC 1 year removed from Arkansas state. If you slowly increase your crootin' haul, you can eventually sneak in a top 5 or top 10 class without too many eyebrows getting raised. But you can't go from being shit to pulling top 5 classes overnight without cheating. Just isn't logical.

[KB21]

There was a time when Bama, Oklahoma, Michigan et al were not storied programs with a long tradition of winning. None of them got there in three years. It takes time, dedication, and decades to build a truly great program. Will we get to that level, I don't know. But I do know we won't get there flipping coaches every three or four years like some programs do.

Look at Florida State as well. They were essentially us before Bowden with the occasional bowl game. It wasn't until Bowden's 12th season that FSU started consistently winning double digit games. Once they got there, FSU won at least 10 games from 1987 to 2000 in each season.

[Johnson85]

Outside of the top 11 recruiting programs (Bama, USC, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Georgia, Florida, Florida State, LSU, Oklahoma, & Auburn) do you think it's possible for anyone else to cheat at the level Ole Miss did and get away with it?

FWIW, Clemson is a top 11 program currently, but I don't consider them a top 11 "recruiting program"

It's been said that OM was just "sloppy" but when cheating at that level, how can you not get sloppy at some point and allow minor things to slip through the cracks?

Sure, they were able to effectively cover up major cash payments to many players on their team, but they couldn't manage the minor details that got them caught.

When managing that much cheating, how would any program not make mistakes?

The top 11 recruiting programs have fortunate position of getting the benefit of the doubt and thus, either don't need to cheat at that level or don't have enough people looking over their shoulder in an effort to discover the sloppy details.

Depends on what you mean by "at that level". UM's problem was that they went with a top heavy approach. They could have pulled Nkemdichee because of his brother and no heads would have turned. If they had taken the resources put into the recruitment of Treadwell and Tunsil and instead made sure to fill their class with players from the Southeast who were border line offers from the big boys (e.g., get players from Alabama that Auburn and/or Bama are keeping warm, or offer them to play their preferred position when Bama/Auburn are offering for a different position), they could have still really improved the talent on their team and not raised many questions. Continually make the weakest link on your team better by competing hard for those players, and then get some stars when you have a natural tie, and eventually you have enough success that you can start competing for big time recruits without natural ties without having to go throw ridiculous sums of money at them.

If you go out with a strategy of outbidding the big boys on 5* prospects, the NCAA is going to smack you down. Even if the REbels hadn't been so sloppy (although I'm not sure you can get a recruiting class like that coming off a bad stretch of seasons with an unknown headcoach without getting sloppy), the NCAA would have found something to hit them with to slow them down.

Ole Miss could have cheated

[1bigdawg]

They almost got away with a fairly strong slap on the wrist. The first NOA was bad, but did not have LOIC. They could have survived that. I believe draft night gave the NCAA the impetus to go back and work harder to prove some of the things they believed. Now they are screwed.

[BrunswickDawg]

It's what I've been saying for years while some folks on this very board have been bemoaning how many players Ole Miss has gotten. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You have to build it up over time, and Dan, for all his perceived faults, has done just that. We're getting better on the recruiting front every year. We're getting players that other people want, and we're developing lower-rated raw talent into good players that go on to the NFL. Recruits see that, and over time it moves from 'flash in the pan' to 'that's what MSU does'. Mullen's going into his 9th season. Rising seniors have pretty much only known Mullen as MSU's coach, and he's starting to get props from national media instead of being mentioned for every vacancy in the country.

We're close, people. Real close.

This ^^^^

It took Jackie 8 years to build us into something. That 9th season in 1999 was special - and arguably our best ever. It showed how long it would take an established coach to build us into something. Then, look what Dan was able to do in 5 years - getting us to #1 after the dregs of the Croom Error. Last year was a let down - yet nothing like some of the letdown years under Jackie (remember The Cigar Boys were poised to fire him until he beat Bama in '96). I think this year begins our real jump into the big time. We are going to surprise people this year like in '14. We won't hit #1, but I think we are about to begin a run that has us in the Top 20 consistently, fighting Bama and AU for supremacy in the West, and will be seen as a model for how you build a modern competitive team from the ground up. (No, I have not been drinking this morning).

[Reason2succeed]

This ^^^^

It took Jackie 8 years to build us into something. That 9th season in 1999 was special - and arguably our best ever. It showed how long it would take an established coach to build us into something. Then, look what Dan was able to do in 5 years - getting us to #1 after the dregs of the Croom Error. Last year was a let down - yet nothing like some of the letdown years under Jackie (remember The Cigar Boys were poised to fire him until he beat Bama in '96). I think this year begins our real jump into the big time. We are going to surprise people this year like in '14. We won't hit #1, but I think we are about to begin a run that has us in the Top 20 consistently, fighting Bama and AU for supremacy in the West, and will be seen as a model for how you build a modern competitive team from the ground up. (No, I have not been drinking this morning).

^^^^^^THIS!!!!

We're in striking distance now! Imagine where we would be if OM wasn't poaching players like Vincent Sanders, AJ Brown, and CJ Johnson. An extra 4 star here or there could have radically transformed a team. Now that should be over.

If we begin picking up national recruits from time to time there will be very little fuss. Dak, Cox, Slay, Gabe et al explain why we might.

[Bubb Rubb]

^^^^^^THIS!!!!

We're in striking distance now! Imagine where we would be if OM wasn't poaching players like Vincent Sanders, AJ Brown, and CJ Johnson. An extra 4 star here or there could have radically transformed a team. Now that should be over.

If we begin picking up national recruits from time to time there will be very little fuss. Dak, Cox, Slay, Gabe et al explain why we might.

I don't lose sleep over it because he got what he deserved, but CJ Johnson is a great case study every recruit should read about before deciding to go to ole miss. He was totally misused and wasted there. If he had come to state he would probably be in the league right now. Moncrief is the last ole miss product that has made a splash in the league but they misused him too.

[dotcomdawg]

Great post. To beat a dead horse, I think the biggest thing that we need to step up on to get to that level is o-line recruiting. Dan is good, but we have to win the battle in the trenches to take that next step. Getting 1-2 three star o-linemen isn't going to help us get there. I really think we have the DC to help us get there and I really like Boniol as a kicking guru. Boniol is going to really pay off for us in a couple of years and is landing Army All-American kickers.

I think we will still see some flaws this year- like the small WR's and a shaky kicking game- but I think by 2018 most of those issues will be resolved.

I have stated for years that we need to hire an O-line coach from a Big-10 state who played, coached, and recruited in the Big-10 and start picking of a couple of those offensive linemen every year. NFL rosters are littered with 12-year veterans with Polish last names who played in the Big-10.