Tommy John

[MaroonFlounder]

Not sure if the link will work, but some good info on what tendencies lead to requiring the surgery. I'm not so convinced now that it was mini me and the weighted ball theory. I know that no team on any level has been more affected by this phenomenon than MSU.

https://www.facebook.com/MLBNetwork/...4406629571695/

[Political Hack]

Every baseball dad/coach should watch that.

[basedog]

Let's put it this way, he sure as hell didn't help our pitchers.

I also read about the weighted ball theory from a Doctors view, sums it up in one word, BAD.

[MarketingBully]

It's about a multitude of factors that culminate in what he tries to do which is to increase velocity. Is he the main reason we had a ton of TJ's? Probably not. Was his philosophy a contributing factor? Hell yes. If he was never our pitching coach, the freshmen probably don't suffer the injuries they had.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usato...tory/85028064/

[preachermatt83]

It's about a multitude of factors that culminate in what he tries to do which is to increase velocity. Is he the main reason we had a ton of TJ's? Probably not. Was his philosophy a contributing factor? Hell yes. If he was never our pitching coach, the freshmen probably don't suffer the injuries they had.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usato...tory/85028064/

Exactly. I hope mini me stays away from pitchers everywhere.

[Todd4State]

To me part of it is all of this Tommy John and max velocity research is fairly new. And it comes down to a lack of education on the parts of coaches, parents, and trainers. You can't expect parents to know what good pitching mechanics are in general unless the father played a high level of baseball. MLB needs to do a better job of teaching youth coaches safe pitching mechanics and habits. And the same with trainers too. I'm in an exercise related profession and we spent a grand total of zero days on pitching mechanics in school.

The whole point behind the Wes Johnson philosophy is to be able to throw hard without getting hurt. But I think that's where there is a breakdown in baseball coaches not understanding about lifting weights and training properly. I think his philosophy and training methods are actually sound- WHEN DONE PROPERLY.

None of our older pitchers had to have Tommy John and they're pitching and doing well in the minors- Hudson, Sexton, Houston, Tatum, and etc. Smith did have to have Tommy John surgery but he had a partial tear. Pilkington is the only younger pitcher from last year that didn't have to have Tommy John- and he is a big physical guy and he has a fairly simple delivery and sound mechanics in general.

I think what went wrong to my understanding is basically Wes spent most of the training time with the older pitchers and he didn't monitor the younger pitchers as closely and left them with the trainer. Our younger guys were doing the workouts with too much weight and with bad mechanics and we all see the fallout. Had Wes spent more time working with them on making sure that their mechanics were sound and focusing more on lower body/core work early we probably don't have the injury problems that we did. But again- some of this is the fallout from learning because with things that are fairly new- sometimes mistakes and disasters have to happen in the learning process.

[Barkman Turner Overdrive]

I'm not so convinced now that it was mini me and the weighted ball theory.

I still hope he dies in a dollhouse fire.

[BB30]

To me part of it is all of this Tommy John and max velocity research is fairly new. And it comes down to a lack of education on the parts of coaches, parents, and trainers. You can't expect parents to know what good pitching mechanics are in general unless the father played a high level of baseball. MLB needs to do a better job of teaching youth coaches safe pitching mechanics and habits. And the same with trainers too. I'm in an exercise related profession and we spent a grand total of zero days on pitching mechanics in school.

The whole point behind the Wes Johnson philosophy is to be able to throw hard without getting hurt. But I think that's where there is a breakdown in baseball coaches not understanding about lifting weights and training properly. I think his philosophy and training methods are actually sound- WHEN DONE PROPERLY.

None of our older pitchers had to have Tommy John and they're pitching and doing well in the minors- Hudson, Sexton, Houston, Tatum, and etc. Smith did have to have Tommy John surgery but he had a partial tear. Pilkington is the only younger pitcher from last year that didn't have to have Tommy John- and he is a big physical guy and he has a fairly simple delivery and sound mechanics in general.

I think what went wrong to my understanding is basically Wes spent most of the training time with the older pitchers and he didn't monitor the younger pitchers as closely and left them with the trainer. Our younger guys were doing the workouts with too much weight and with bad mechanics and we all see the fallout. Had Wes spent more time working with them on making sure that their mechanics were sound and focusing more on lower body/core work early we probably don't have the injury problems that we did. But again- some of this is the fallout from learning because with things that are fairly new- sometimes mistakes and disasters have to happen in the learning process.

Exactly, young guys are already overwhelmed physically by the workouts etc when they first arrive. For many it is the first time playing fall ball and practicing/throwing everyday in the fall. On top of that rigorous workouts that most aren't used too and then a weighted ball program, their bodies just weren't physically ready for all of it. Their bodies get tired, and then mechanics go south all while trying to earn a spot. Was just an unfortunate set of circumstances.

[smootness]

There is a clear correlation between increased velocity and increased injuries. A coach whose sole philosophy is increasing velocity is likely to see increased injuries as well. It's not hard.

[Todd4State]

There is a clear correlation between increased velocity and increased injuries. A coach whose sole philosophy is increasing velocity is likely to see increased injuries as well. It's not hard.

I think there is a way to do that properly and also minimize injury. See Nolan Ryan.

[basedog]

From things I read, throwing a weighted ball has far more negatives than positives.

No doubt travel ball and youth baseball has become a cancer for pitchers on arm injuries.

[Lord McBuckethead]

I think there is a way to do that properly and also minimize injury. See Nolan Ryan.

Natural hard thrower who's natural physique can handle the strain. There is a reason I cannot throw 90. Because I am not supposed to throw 90.

[Todd4State]

From things I read, throwing a weighted ball has far more negatives than positives.

No doubt travel ball and youth baseball has become a cancer for pitchers on arm injuries.

Basically a weighted ball is no different than a weight in that if you overload you put yourself at risk of injury. If you use the appropriate amount of weight and use good form/mechanics you should be fine or at the very least reduce your risk of getting injured.

[Todd4State]

Natural hard thrower who's natural physique can handle the strain. There is a reason I cannot throw 90. Because I am not supposed to throw 90.

We're also not built to play tackle football because there is risk of concussion. That's not going to stop people from playing football.

The solution as far as baseball is to try to develop a way to throw hard and to do so where the risk of injury is minimized. That's what baseball is just now starting to do.

[smootness]

We're also not built to play tackle football because there is risk of concussion. That's not going to stop people from playing football.

The solution as far as baseball is to try to develop a way to throw hard and to do so where the risk of injury is minimized. That's what baseball is just now starting to do.

The bottom line is that increased velocity is positively correlated with an increase in injury risk. Our old pitching coach emphasized increasing velocity above all, and we saw an unprecedented rash of pitching injuries.

You're not going to remove people's opinions that the two are related simply by saying, 'But WJ does it the right way.' There are two explanations: either Wes Johnson contributed to our pitching injuries, or we just got insanely unlucky at a very coincidental time. Both are possible, but the former is more likely.

[basedog]

Basically a weighted ball is no different than a weight in that if you overload you put yourself at risk of injury. If you use the appropriate amount of weight and use good form/mechanics you should be fine or at the very least reduce your risk of getting injured.

Whole lot of difference holding a weight and releasing a "weight" by throwing. More problems with hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder with weighted balls.

No way in God's green earth can you convince me it's ok. Like I said, I've read "several" articles about throwing weighted balls and the majority are negative.

P.S. i bet Henderson and Cannizzaro are against weighted balls, probably all of the pictures that played for WJ last year would say the same.

Have no idea where any Coach came up with that theory and I bet no orthopedic doctor did! Fact is I ask my orthopedic doc about it and he said no way!

[Todd4State]

The bottom line is that increased velocity is positively correlated with an increase in injury risk. Our old pitching coach emphasized increasing velocity above all, and we saw an unprecedented rash of pitching injuries.

You're not going to remove people's opinions that the two are related simply by saying, 'But WJ does it the right way.' There are two explanations: either Wes Johnson contributed to our pitching injuries, or we just got insanely unlucky at a very coincidental time. Both are possible, but the former is more likely.

My whole argument is that Wes Johnson did it the wrong way.

And to add- to say that "velocity" is the only positively coorrelated thing with pitching injuries is incorrect and misleading. I have a feeling based on preliminary findings that we're going to find that rest and overuse are the two main factors. There are already trends that show that pitchers from the "North" are having fewer injuries and that's because they don't play the game year round.

I think the coorelation with velocity is misleading because the subjects haven't had a chance to do it the right way to start with.

[Todd4State]

Whole lot of difference holding a weight and releasing a "weight" by throwing. More problems with hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder with weighted balls.

No way in God's green earth can you convince me it's ok. Like I said, I've read "several" articles about throwing weighted balls and the majority are negative.

P.S. i bet Henderson and Cannizzaro are against weighted balls, probably all of the pictures that played for WJ last year would say the same.

Have no idea where any Coach came up with that theory and I bet no orthopedic doctor did! Fact is I ask my orthopedic doc about it and he said no way!

Orthopedic doctors are not experts in exercise. There's a reason why they send their patients to physical therapists.

About 30 years ago weight training was also taboo in baseball because they thought it increased injuries. A lot of those old coaches were not convinced and would not be convinced that it was beneficial and now everyone does it and you want find anyone who is against it.

[basedog]

Let's say we disagree. WJ sucked, big time!

[Todd4State]

Let's say we disagree. WJ sucked, big time!

I definitely agree with that. I think he was very negligent and reckless with how he handled his program.

That's what I want people to understand- it's not the weighted ball itself that was the problem. The problem was overloading the weight, not using the proper form when using them, and not focusing on getting mechanics down and strengthening the core and lower body enough before advancing to the weights. And then not monitoring the trainer well enough when the program was being done.

All of that is on Wes Johnson.

If someone had done the program properly I don't think we would have had the issues that we did.