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Thread: Gridley 1st team All-SEC SS

  1. #41
    Senior Member WeWonItAll(Most)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Schmedlap View Post
    I think Gridley leaves but Mangum returns. That's just a gut feeling, but I did eat Tex-mex for lunch.
    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    I think mangum has the most to gain. I think with some fine tuning to his approach and better base stealing, he projects much better to MLB and could be a relatively high pick
    Mangum isn't in the same situation as Gridley either. Like Rooker last season, he will still have another year of leverage if he doesn't go this year.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeWonItAll(Most) View Post
    I'm not an expert on the subject. I feel like I remember the signing bonuses for players like Graveman and Girodo, who were seniors drafted in the 8th and 9th round, were a fraction of the signing bonuses for juniors and HS players drafted around them and many rounds after them.

    I also feel like our lack of scholarships compared to the likes of LSU, Vandy, etc hurts us on this end of the process as well. It probably makes it slightly easier to sell coming back another year if the player has more scholarship money, but I also know that we have pulled juniors' scholarship money that were all but certain to be drafted at the end of the season so that we could give them to incoming players. Which shuts the door on them coming back even if they had a mediocre junior season.
    The thing that a lot of people need to understand is in baseball nowadays it?s pretty rare to get ?life changing? money in the draft anymore unless you are Stephen Strasburg or someone like that in terms of a bonus. Even if you are a college junior you?re likely to be getting something in the thousands of dollars range. To make the life changing money you need to make it to MLB, play in MLB and get to year six and get a big contract after you?ve been through arbitration before that. I think Kruger got 410K as a bonus and that?s probably the high end.
    The benefit to coming back to college is because of their age and experience some of those players can shoot through a system- like Graveman did. Girodo wasn?t drafted until his senior year so he had no choice. Graveman also got an engineering degree from MSU I believe and had baseball not worked out for him he could have almost immediately transitioned back into the public sector without having to spend a year going to school to get his degree. The Marlins drafted Graveman in the 36th round also- he probably wasn?t going to get much more than what he ended up getting.
    Basically, Kendall Graveman spent his minor league career at MSU, got a degree, and came close to winning a National Championship with us and then shot up to the Big Leagues. I doubt he has any regrets about the few thousand dollars he left on the table.
    So, IMO you?re probably better off in most cases if you are in the round 12 and beyond range of going back to school, getting better to give yourself a chance to get to MLB more quickly, getting your degree, and also helping your college win a championship.

    I?m not sure how Cann will handle the scholarships but if that was why we were losing so many Kruger?s and Zac Houston?s I?m confident that he will fix that especially having been at LSU where they are the masters of getting guys to come back for their senior year.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Tbonewannabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    Frazier was a 6th round, but he was better than gridley imo

    Gridley...
    Soph = .284/.340/.345 ops = .685
    Junior = .326/.389/.469 ops = .858

    Frazier...
    Soph = .371/.482/.445 ops = .927
    Junior = .352/.398/.464 ops = .862

    Frazier played with dead ball.
    I was talking about their defense. Frazier was obviously the better hitter.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Poster View Post
    Ol RP and I Seen It may know some baseball afterall
    Kramer Robertson's mom is going to be really mad about this

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    Senior Member WeWonItAll(Most)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    The thing that a lot of people need to understand is in baseball nowadays it?s pretty rare to get ?life changing? money in the draft anymore unless you are Stephen Strasburg or someone like that in terms of a bonus. Even if you are a college junior you?re likely to be getting something in the thousands of dollars range. To make the life changing money you need to make it to MLB, play in MLB and get to year six and get a big contract after you?ve been through arbitration before that. I think Kruger got 410K as a bonus and that?s probably the high end.
    The benefit to coming back to college is because of their age and experience some of those players can shoot through a system- like Graveman did. Girodo wasn?t drafted until his senior year so he had no choice. Graveman also got an engineering degree from MSU I believe and had baseball not worked out for him he could have almost immediately transitioned back into the public sector without having to spend a year going to school to get his degree. The Marlins drafted Graveman in the 36th round also- he probably wasn?t going to get much more than what he ended up getting.
    Basically, Kendall Graveman spent his minor league career at MSU, got a degree, and came close to winning a National Championship with us and then shot up to the Big Leagues. I doubt he has any regrets about the few thousand dollars he left on the table.
    So, IMO you?re probably better off in most cases if you are in the round 12 and beyond range of going back to school, getting better to give yourself a chance to get to MLB more quickly, getting your degree, and also helping your college win a championship.

    I?m not sure how Cann will handle the scholarships but if that was why we were losing so many Kruger?s and Zac Houston?s I?m confident that he will fix that especially having been at LSU where they are the masters of getting guys to come back for their senior year.
    I guess it depends on what you define as life changing money. If you told me I could have 410k and start slogging through the minors or wait a year, have fun playing another year of college ball, get drafted 5 rounds higher, and make 120k, I would be mighty tempted to take the money. School can wait, and if I'm not mistaking, it would be on the MLB's dime if I decided to go back after baseball. Not everyone is like Graveman and makes a jump from the 36th round to the 8th round in one year. And you're much more likely to get cut than make the big leagues.

    I think all our back and forth is proving is that it's a pretty personal decision. I'll be thrilled if he stays, and wish him best of luck if he goes.

    I hope Cann can figure out scholarship issues, the problem is he'll have to hit loopholes to get it done here, whereas at LSU it was built in with the TOPS program. I do think Cann has the personality of a coach that players WANT to play for that Cohen never quite had (evident by that article about some of the LSU guys crying when he announced he was coming here). So hopefully that'll count for something.

    As an aside, I think I've seen where Louisiana might be doing away with TOPS in the near future. It'll be interesting to see how that affects their program, if at all

  6. #46
    Our Pretentious Preacher preachermatt83's Avatar
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    I would be shocked if Gridley and mangum went pro.
    Romans 5:8

  7. #47
    Senior Member Tbonewannabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeWonItAll(Most) View Post
    I guess it depends on what you define as life changing money. If you told me I could have 410k and start slogging through the minors or wait a year, have fun playing another year of college ball, get drafted 5 rounds higher, and make 120k, I would be mighty tempted to take the money. School can wait, and if I'm not mistaking, it would be on the MLB's dime if I decided to go back after baseball. Not everyone is like Graveman and makes a jump from the 36th round to the 8th round in one year. And you're much more likely to get cut than make the big leagues.

    I think all our back and forth is proving is that it's a pretty personal decision. I'll be thrilled if he stays, and wish him best of luck if he goes.

    I hope Cann can figure out scholarship issues, the problem is he'll have to hit loopholes to get it done here, whereas at LSU it was built in with the TOPS program. I do think Cann has the personality of a coach that players WANT to play for that Cohen never quite had (evident by that article about some of the LSU guys crying when he announced he was coming here). So hopefully that'll count for something.

    As an aside, I think I've seen where Louisiana might be doing away with TOPS in the near future. It'll be interesting to see how that affects their program, if at all
    I don't see how the state can afford it when they were talking about money problems in the university system.

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    Robertson is from Texas so TOPS had no effect on him.

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    If we took away the junior's scholarship money before they even decided then that is one big dumb dumb move Cohen did. Sounds like we didn't even try to talk them into coming back. Will be interesting to see how Cann fairs. Personally, I think he will have a much better success rate then Cohen did on getting players on campus and keeping them on campus.

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    Senior Member WeWonItAll(Most)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarketingBully View Post
    Robertson is from Texas so TOPS had no effect on him.
    They don't have to use their 11.7 on any player from Louisiana. Or at least any player that's semi-competent in the classroom. So indirectly it does, because it gives them more to use on non-Louisiana players.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    TOPS is actually probably going to decline if not be phased out in the coming years in Louisiana. If I'm not mistaken, it already has gone through some cuts.

    We do similar things as LSU but of course it's a little bit different because we don't have TOPS in Mississippi. We use academic scholarships, grants, and things like that to make up for the windfall. Some of those academic monies don't change while you are in school as long as the student maintains the requirements to keep the scholarship. Actually if I remember correctly some of mine actually increased when I became a junior.

    This TOPS thing is an issue because Ron Polk bitched about it and how unfair it was and didn't do anything about it like Cohen and Cann did, have, and will and our fans have kind of latched on to it and use it as an excuse and claim it as a disadvantage.

    I'm very glad that we have a coach from LSU because I'm pretty sure Cann in addition to his scouting insight and how things work on that end also knows how LSU convinces players to come back for their senior year. And apparently he was one of the major reasons those players came back to school.

  12. #52
    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeWonItAll(Most) View Post
    I guess it depends on what you define as life changing money. If you told me I could have 410k and start slogging through the minors or wait a year, have fun playing another year of college ball, get drafted 5 rounds higher, and make 120k, I would be mighty tempted to take the money. School can wait, and if I'm not mistaking, it would be on the MLB's dime if I decided to go back after baseball. Not everyone is like Graveman and makes a jump from the 36th round to the 8th round in one year. And you're much more likely to get cut than make the big leagues.

    I think all our back and forth is proving is that it's a pretty personal decision. I'll be thrilled if he stays, and wish him best of luck if he goes.

    I hope Cann can figure out scholarship issues, the problem is he'll have to hit loopholes to get it done here, whereas at LSU it was built in with the TOPS program. I do think Cann has the personality of a coach that players WANT to play for that Cohen never quite had (evident by that article about some of the LSU guys crying when he announced he was coming here). So hopefully that'll count for something.

    As an aside, I think I've seen where Louisiana might be doing away with TOPS in the near future. It'll be interesting to see how that affects their program, if at all
    To me 3-4 million is life changing money. I can tell you from family experience most MLB players don't do logical things like start 401K's. Usually they go out and buy a sports car and a big house. They also have to live off of their bonus the entire time they are in the minors so if you're Jack Kruger and you spend 7-8 years in the minors that 410K goes pretty quick. Stats show that if you go to college to play baseball first your odds of making it to MLB increase a good bit.

    Sometimes MLB will pay for school- but what they don't tell you is there's a chance your 410K bonus is going to be exhausted by then and your wife/family are going to be stressed while your going to school and basically taking on debt for a year.

    The way I see it- if you are a college junior you're probably best off leaving after your junior year if you are drafted in rounds 1-12. I don't expect us to retain very many players drafted in those rounds- unless it's a situation where someone like say for example Rooker gets drafted in the second round and he thinks he can get in the first round by coming back which is probably going to happen about 5% of the time. I don't expect Cann to keep most of those guys.

    Rounds 12-20 is kind of a crapshoot. Those are kind of the critical ones because they're usually pretty good players but not elite most of the time. They're the ones that can kind of set you up for a championship run. These are the players where I think Cann can possibly really help us out a lot more than in the past.

    Rounds 21-40 you should probably go back to school. We should be able to keep around 90% of these players.

    I'm not sure why Cohen couldn't retain more guys than he did. He obviously was able to get a few back like Graveman- that could have been because of Butch. It may have been in part because of the assistants we had- after all the LSU players came back because of Cann and not Manieri. I don't think Mingione was that great of a hitting coach and while he was a nice guy and good recruiter, I don't think he's the kind of guy that can elevate most guys to MLB and certainly not anything like Cann. It will be interesting to see but I think he probably is going to be about average at Kentucky with a bunch of JUCO's once Henderson's team leaves/graduates. A lot of our pitchers probably figured that Wes wasn't coming back and didn't want to go through pitching coach number three.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    To me 3-4 million is life changing money. I can tell you from family experience most MLB players don't do logical things like start 401K's. Usually they go out and buy a sports car and a big house. They also have to live off of their bonus the entire time they are in the minors so if you're Jack Kruger and you spend 7-8 years in the minors that 410K goes pretty quick. Stats show that if you go to college to play baseball first your odds of making it to MLB increase a good bit.

    Sometimes MLB will pay for school- but what they don't tell you is there's a chance your 410K bonus is going to be exhausted by then and your wife/family are going to be stressed while your going to school and basically taking on debt for a year.

    The way I see it- if you are a college junior you're probably best off leaving after your junior year if you are drafted in rounds 1-12. I don't expect us to retain very many players drafted in those rounds- unless it's a situation where someone like say for example Rooker gets drafted in the second round and he thinks he can get in the first round by coming back which is probably going to happen about 5% of the time. I don't expect Cann to keep most of those guys.

    Rounds 12-20 is kind of a crapshoot. Those are kind of the critical ones because they're usually pretty good players but not elite most of the time. They're the ones that can kind of set you up for a championship run. These are the players where I think Cann can possibly really help us out a lot more than in the past.

    Rounds 21-40 you should probably go back to school. We should be able to keep around 90% of these players.

    I'm not sure why Cohen couldn't retain more guys than he did. He obviously was able to get a few back like Graveman- that could have been because of Butch. It may have been in part because of the assistants we had- after all the LSU players came back because of Cann and not Manieri. I don't think Mingione was that great of a hitting coach and while he was a nice guy and good recruiter, I don't think he's the kind of guy that can elevate most guys to MLB and certainly not anything like Cann. It will be interesting to see but I think he probably is going to be about average at Kentucky with a bunch of JUCO's once Henderson's team leaves/graduates. A lot of our pitchers probably figured that Wes wasn't coming back and didn't want to go through pitching coach number three.
    Great post Todd!

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    Quote Originally Posted by I seen it dawg View Post
    Can't play SS for us....or hit 3 hole...

    Had to know it was coming. You know who you are that were adamant grid wasn't the guy and Belmont is our best SS. And doubled down when he was hitting .190. You know who you are.....

    Congrats Grid. Been in your corner since day 1 and you've worked your ass off to make yourself into 1st team all SEC. Very deserving.
    For what it's worth, I'm still not sure he was the ideal 3-hole guy (but I totally understand what Cann was thinking). Hindsight shows a pretty big sophomore slump for Mangum although he had a decent year. Gridley would have been better leading off all year as he had a much stronger season than Mangum. Would have rather had him leading off sooner to provide more RBI opportunities for Rooker since Mangum wasn't getting on as much. Could still hit Mangum after Rooker to protect him in the lineup.

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    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    If he gets 12th or higher I think he would probably go. Anything after that it's up to Cann.
    It's not about where you're drafted, it's about what you're offered. Look at Kruger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSVDawg View Post
    For what it's worth, I'm still not sure he was the ideal 3-hole guy (but I totally understand what Cann was thinking). Hindsight shows a pretty big sophomore slump for Mangum although he had a decent year. Gridley would have been better leading off all year as he had a much stronger season than Mangum. Would have rather had him leading off sooner to provide more RBI opportunities for Rooker since Mangum wasn't getting on as much. Could still hit Mangum after Rooker to protect him in the lineup.
    I don't disagree with any of this. I wanted Grid to hit leadoff from the get go. Some of our self thought baseball gurus were fighting me on Grid being able to be our SS and hit 3 for us. Which he was capable as it turns out of both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I seen it dawg View Post
    I don't disagree with any of this. I wanted Grid to hit leadoff from the get go. Some of our self thought baseball gurus were fighting me on Grid being able to be our SS and hit 3 for us. Which he was capable as it turns out of both.
    I actually went back and checked the final stats and the gap was not as big between Grid and Mangum as I originally thought. A week or two ago, Jake was just barely around .300 with Gridley around .330 or .340 and way better power numbers (which is what I was thinking may have been where they ended up). They are now basically even in avg / OBP, but Gridley has the better power numbers. So they ended up a lot more interchangeable than I expected originally. Of course, if we had a 4th viable hitter we could have put Rooker where he belongs in the 3-hole, with Gridley or Mangum behind him, the other leading off, and the 4th guy batting in the 2-hole. Never could quite get enough production from Brown or Stovall to justify hitting either of them that high in the order though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smootness View Post
    It's not about where you're drafted, it's about what you're offered. Look at Kruger.
    The signing bonus is fool's gold unless it's something like $750k or higher. Depending on Kruger's home and family situation, he probably benefitted more by coming back and having a great season this year and getting drafted in the top 10 rounds with a better trajectory to getting to the league. Getting to the MLB obviously is where you really make life changing money.

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    Senior Member Tbonewannabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smootness View Post
    It's not about where you're drafted, it's about what you're offered. Look at Kruger.
    Yep, Kruger got as big a signing bonus as he was going to even if he came back and was drafted in the top 10 rounds. Glad for him and hopefully he can finish his degree online or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe View Post
    Yep, Kruger got as big a signing bonus as he was going to even if he came back and was drafted in the top 10 rounds. Glad for him and hopefully he can finish his degree online or something.
    Ask Rooker if he made the right decision. I know Rooker had more leverage but unless Kruger's family situation dictated he take the money he would have benefited tremendously under Cann's tutelage.

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