Wes Johnson

[msstate7]

Watching Arkansas-bama and the announcers are really praising Wes. Saying he's an up-and-comer who's on the cutting edge using weighted balls and such. They then mention 3 pitchers out for Arkansas. Are all 3 TJ? If so, did they get injured after Wes took over? There was no mention of the destruction Wes did here.

Right or wrong, I put a lot of blame on Wes for destroying our staff which would've been one of the best in the country. I want Wes to be questioned about our injury issues. If he's responsible, I want Wes blackballed before he ruins more arms

[WSOPdawg]

And recruits need to know and be aware as well.

[confucius say]

I don't know if it was Wes's fault or someone else's, but somebody is to blame. 7 TJs is not a coincidence.

[msstate7]

I don't know if it was Wes's fault or someone else's, but somebody is to blame. 7 TJs is not a coincidence.

If the 3 are ark are TJ since Wes took over, that's 10

[confucius say]

If the 3 are ark are TJ since Wes took over, that's 10

True. That ain't a coincidence.

[Bully13]

What wrong things does a pitching coach do to cause TJ? over pitch them?

[msstate7]

What wrong things does a pitching coach do to cause TJ? over pitch them?

Having them pitch bowling balls** Weighted balls really could be the culprit

[ShotgunDawg]

Ugh, not this again. Of the 3 Arkansas guys that are out, one has been hurt for 2 years, another is a max effort reliever with awful mechanics, & the other may have been bothered by what Wes does with weighted balls.

You guys act like what Wes does is some kind of crime or something without even mentioning that we've gone through 3 pitching coaches in less than a year. In a nutshell, here is the reputation that each one of them have for how they coach pitchers.

Butch - pitchability, marathon
Wes - Power, sprinter
Henderson - Pitchability, marathon

So basically, in less that a year we did the equivalent of training the pitch by doing yoga, ulimate crossfit, and back to yoga.

Is there anything wrong with what Wes does? I really don't think so. I believe much of our problems are due to having three different pitching coaches in under a year with drastically different training regiments & styles.

If I was to question Wes on one thing, I do wonder if he ramped our guys up too quickly in the Fall of 2016. Remember, he didn't come over till October at the end of Fall practice & basically had to convert our pitching staff to his style extremely quick. Turns out, it worked as many pitchers improved, however, maybe he tried to do it all too quickly. If Butch would've gotten hired in the Summer of 2016 at Auburn & Wes has August & September to more slowly implement his beliefs, perhaps things may have been different.

That being said, the bitterness & constant unsubstantiated, witch hunt is ridiculous. Wes has Arkansas' pitching staff rolling & he's an outstanding pitching coach.

[msstate7]

Ugh, not this again. Of the 3 Arkansas guys that are out, one has been hurt for 2 years, another is a max effort reliever with awful mechanics, & the other may have been bothered by what Wes does with weighted balls.

You guys act like what Wes does is some kind of crime or something without even mentioning that we've gone through 3 pitching coaches in less than a year. In a nutshell, here is the reputation that each one of them have for how they coach pitchers.

Butch - pitchability, marathon
Wes - Power, sprinter
Henderson - Pitchability, marathon

So basically, in less that a year we did the equivalent of training the pitch by doing yoga, ulimate crossfit, and back to yoga.

Is there anything wrong with what Wes does? I really don't think so. I believe much of our problems are due to having three different pitching coaches in under a year with drastically different training regiments & styles.

If I was to question Wes on one thing, I do wonder if he ramped our guys up too quickly in the Fall of 2016. Remember, he didn't come over till October at the end of Fall practice & basically had to convert our pitching staff to his style extremely quick. Turns out, it worked as many pitchers improved, however, maybe he tried to do it all too quickly. If Butch would've gotten hired in the Summer of 2016 at Auburn & Wes has August & September to more slowly implement his beliefs, perhaps things may have been different.

That being said, the bitterness & constant unsubstantiated, witch hunt is ridiculous. Wes has Arkansas' pitching staff rolling & he's an outstanding pitching coach.

So in less words you're saying Wes isn't responsible, but he could be.

[The Federalist Engineer]

We can talk about Wes next March, hopefully Arkansas has 8 TJ and 2 full amputations

[msstate7]

Ugh, not this again. Of the 3 Arkansas guys that are out, one has been hurt for 2 years, another is a max effort reliever with awful mechanics, & the other may have been bothered by what Wes does with weighted balls.

You guys act like what Wes does is some kind of crime or something without even mentioning that we've gone through 3 pitching coaches in less than a year. In a nutshell, here is the reputation that each one of them have for how they coach pitchers.

Butch - pitchability, marathon
Wes - Power, sprinter
Henderson - Pitchability, marathon

So basically, in less that a year we did the equivalent of training the pitch by doing yoga, ulimate crossfit, and back to yoga.

Is there anything wrong with what Wes does? I really don't think so. I believe much of our problems are due to having three different pitching coaches in under a year with drastically different training regiments & styles.

If I was to question Wes on one thing, I do wonder if he ramped our guys up too quickly in the Fall of 2016. Remember, he didn't come over till October at the end of Fall practice & basically had to convert our pitching staff to his style extremely quick. Turns out, it worked as many pitchers improved, however, maybe he tried to do it all too quickly. If Butch would've gotten hired in the Summer of 2016 at Auburn & Wes has August & September to more slowly implement his beliefs, perhaps things may have been different.

That being said, the bitterness & constant unsubstantiated, witch hunt is ridiculous. Wes has Arkansas' pitching staff rolling & he's an outstanding pitching coach.

Which ones of our TJ crew were really coached by 3 pitching coaches? Small, james, Padgett, ford, breaux, and Hughes were freshmen last year. Smith was a juco transfer last season.

[yjnkdawg]

Having them pitch bowling balls** Weighted balls really could be the culprit

I think over pitching when younger and not good pitching techniques, by depending more on their arm for more velocity, instead of having good pitching techinques, by using their legs to help keep the pressure off their elbow and arm. Then they get the weighted balls and a double whammy.

[Homedawg]

Which ones of our TJ crew were really coached by 3 pitching coaches? Small, james, Padgett, ford, breaux, and Hughes were freshmen last year. Smith was a juco transfer last season.

The jury is still out. Should the eyes be on Wes? Yeah I guess. But to say he's the responsible one is just short sighted. Too many factors to say, yeah, he's it.

[Todd4State]

Well, I think we can say with certainty that Ford and Marze are not on Johnson. Ford had surgery before Wes got here and Marze had his in junior college.

Another thing to keep in mind is one of our signees who played on the same travel ball team as a lot of our other recruits who are injured but went pro instead of to MSU had Tommy John this past season.

I mean- it could be just shitty luck. There is that chance too. When a travel ball team has a guy that is a SEC recruit or is a legit draft prospect like a lot of our recruits are- those are the guys that pitch a lot in travel ball and have the high leverage situation more often than not in travel ball and high school. That's why you see more Tommy John surgeries in the SEC than maybe some of the other conferences.

[NewDawg]

Having them pitch bowling balls** Weighted balls really could be the culprit

....throwing weighted balls alone and allowing arm slots to drop putting more stress on elbow.

[NewDawg]

most of those pitchers came in with good mechanics and had protected their arms. All you have to do is go back to fall ball and see how good they were. It fell apart with WJ. You can't throw weighted balls every day. That's #1. You can't throw them for extended periods of time. That's #2. Pitchers have to be supervised when throwing them to maintain good mechanics. That's #3. Seven guys with TJ in one year is ridiculous no matter what program you are at or who the coach is. WJ should have to answer for our 7 and Ark. 3. I have heard there are others that are nursing elbows so there may be more than 3.

[Todd4State]

most of those pitchers came in with good mechanics and had protected their arms. All you have to do is go back to fall ball and see how good they were. It fell apart with WJ. You can't throw weighted balls every day. That's #1. You can't throw them for extended periods of time. That's #2. Pitchers have to be supervised when throwing them to maintain good mechanics. That's #3. Seven guys with TJ in one year is ridiculous no matter what program you are at or who the coach is. WJ should have to answer for our 7 and Ark. 3. I have heard there are others that are nursing elbows so there may be more than 3.

Others at Arkansas? Or MSU?

[smootness]

Well, I think we can say with certainty that Ford and Marze are not on Johnson. Ford had surgery before Wes got here and Marze had his in junior college.

I haven't seen anyone put Ford on Johnson. And I've seen Marze listed at times, but I think the primary guys we're talking about are Small, Padgett, James, Hughes, Breaux, and Smith.

Look, the bottom line is, we have an inordinate and possibly unprecedented number of pitchers out for the year, especially having TJ surgery. Could it all be incredibly bad luck? It's possible. Could it be an issue with instruction? I would argue that is definitely more likely. But we won't ever know for sure. If Johnson goes on to great things at Arkansas or wherever else and doesn't have these issues pop up again, then it will be tough to pin it on him.

But there is pretty strong evidence that velocity is correlated with an increase in TJ likelihood. And Johnson teaches velocity above all and almost certainly more frequent max effort than most coaches. So it's not really a groundbreaking thing to suggest that Johnson's methods are going to lead to a higher likelihood of serious injury and TJ. The question is just how much more likely you can expect it to be, and how much of our current issues he can be blamed for.

I really don't get the 'if there's any criticism of him, it's that he ramped up his program too quickly' as just a minor complaint. If that happened, that is a huge problem. It would be irresponsible and would almost certainly be the reason we are in our current position. I don't know if he did that, but if he did, he's a danger to any team for which he coaches because it means he will cut corners to the detriment of his pitchers for his own sake.

And in the yoga/crossfit/yoga example, that doesn't seem like it would be a problem at all...unless the crossfit trainer tried to go 100 mph right out of the gate. Yoga will increase flexibility, core strength, etc. so it should make you more likely to adapt well to crossfit; the only problem would come in if you tried to go too heavy on the crossfit immediately...and yes, that would almost certainly lead to injury and muscle tears.

But doing yoga before crossfit seems like a better way to ease into crossfit than just jumping straight in. In the same way, instruction toward pitchability and endurance should not make it harder to begin instruction toward velocity and strength. It should be building up some of the strength necessary for that kind of training. But that kind of training will always lead to a higher likelihood of injury, and that risk is exponentially increased if there are corners cut in that process.

[ShotgunDawg]

Please post less. Your just looking ignorant.


Or it just could be that we had 3 pitching coaches in less than year that all have different styles and training regiments. Additionally, we hired Johnson in October and gave him less time to implement his system than a normal pitching coach would ever get.

Keep up the witch hunt though. It makes you look brilliant when Wes is about to coach his 2nd straight SEC Championship team and have 2 pitchers go in the top 5 rounds of the draft.

[BB30]

Most arm injuries if not caused by poor mechanics, are often caused by tiredness. Obviously being over pitched at a young age can play a role. Basically, when the muscles wear down and are tired the body subconsciously makes up for that by putting more stress on the ligaments in the shoulder and elbow to create the same desired outcome. That is why you hear a lot of people talk about how many stressful pitches/innings the guy has thrown in that game/season/. By stressful I mean pitches thrown with runners in scoring position.

I honestly think it was probably just a mix of really really bad luck and some guys arms weren't ready for the pay load. As stated above, several of these guys were freshman last year. Not every freshman is used to lifting weights several days a week and the amount of throwing that is done in a college week. That creates tired arms. Throw on top of a tired body and arm a weighted ball program and that may have been enough to snap the camels back.