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Thread: Why Ole Miss should be afraid of coming NCAA sanctions

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    Senior Member WSOPdawg's Avatar
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    Why Ole Miss should be afraid of coming NCAA sanctions

    Warning, Be sure to have a cup of coffee close, because this is somewhat long, but its good for Monday morning discussion.


    I find the SMU Death Penalty story from the 1980s fascinating, and for those of you thinking The Cheaters Up North (TCUN) will NOT receive the DP from the NCAA in 2017, I wouldn?t be so sure. While reading about the Pony Express, several other DP cases came to light that while I was aware of, I had somewhat forgotten about.


    Morehouse College, 2003
    In 2003, the soccer team of Morehouse College in Atlanta was given the Death Penalty by the NCAA while having NOT been previously placed on probation or penalized for infractions. The USA Today article from 2003 (Steve Wieberg, 11/13/2003) quotes the NCAA?s Kay Hawes as saying ?It?s a situation where the committee found there was a complete failure to have a program comply with NCAA rules and that?s not something you see very often.?


    Baylor, 2005
    Research regarding the Baylor men?s basketball team?s 2004 demise over the murder of a former player, Eric Dotson, (which led Lawrence Roberts to MSU) led to numerous other NCAA violations being uncovered and warranted Death Penalty consideration by the NCAA. With the head coach complicit in the cover-up of Dotson, additional violations included:

    (1) paying for player?s tuition;
    (2) coaching staff paying for meals, clothing, lodging, transportation;
    (3) recruiting violations relating to illegal tryouts;
    (4) head coach encouraging boosters to donate to foundation tied to basketball team that
    included prospective Baylor recruits (Network anyone???);
    (5) failure to report positive drug tests by athletes;
    (6) failure by entire coaching staff to ?exercise institutional control over basketball program;?


    According to Wikipedia, ?In its final report, the NCAA called the violations at Baylor as serious as those which occurred at SMU almost 20 years earlier. Indeed, Baylor was eligible for the "death penalty" since its men's tennis program was on probation for major violations; the NCAA can hand down the death penalty for a second major violation within five years, even if it occurs in a different sport. However, it praised Baylor for taking prompt action once the violations came to light (in marked contrast to SMU, where there was evidence that administrators knew about the violations and did nothing).?


    Several things can be taken from the last paragraph:

    First, Baylor WAS eligible for the DP because the tennis team was already on probation. Regarding TCUN, with WBB and men?s track being placed on probation in late October, 2016, they are eligible to be hit with the DP, especially since they may very well have been caught during this last recruiting cycle in late November or December (2016) violating the NCAA rules (AGAIN!!!).

    Second, the Baylor administration proactively attacked these problems by firing the head coach and canceling out-of-conference games for the upcoming season. The Cheaters Up North have practically done the exact opposite in terms of taking prompt action. In fact, if rumors are true that the Network continued their act while the NCAA?s investigation was ongoing, woe be unto them!!!

    Third, regarding Morehouse? DP ? are we not seeing a complete failure by TCUN to comply with NCAA rules? How so, you might ask?

    2013 Tunsil (cash payments from coaches via NFL draft night, loaner cars on 3 or 4 occasions in NOA #1, rumors of housing for parents)

    2014 Austin Gohlson (Auburn transfer with rumored immunity for Network info)

    2015 Bo Scarborough (Bama RB with rumored immunity for Network info)

    2016 Leo Lewis (MSU LB with rumored immunity for Network info)

    2016 Greg Little (mother?s recent admission of receiving payment to attend school in Oxford and then backtracking)

    2017 Willie Gay (MSU LB rumored to have turned over Network info to NCAA)


    Surely lack of institutional control is on the horizon and given that these violations are spanning such a long time-frame and are coming from so many different players, and given what the NCAA did to Morehouse a little more than a decade ago in 2003 (?where there was a complete failure to have a program comply with NCAA rules?) and what they said regarding Baylor in 2005, the argument that the Death Penalty is definitely on the table can definitely be made.

    After all, when you?ve been told to shut down improprieties (ie, ongoing investigation since 2013) and continue to violate the governing rules (from 2010 - present), should any one be surprised when it all gets taken away?

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    Senior Member starkvegasdawg's Avatar
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    Senior Member bulldogcountry1's Avatar
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    I still don't see the DP happening, but if the NCAA has found that UM won't stop cheating long enough for them to stop their investigation, what other option do they have?

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    Senior Member WSOPdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg34 View Post
    Not exactly the response I was expecting, but it did make me laugh!!!

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    Senior Member thf24's Avatar
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    If Barney sang as rumored, then they've got them pegged in the Morehouse College situation. If so then things will get very interesting when the 2nd NOA goes public.

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    Senior Member Reason2succeed's Avatar
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    Excellent research. Post more.

    The answer is yes the DP will definitely be discussed during the COI. Whether they vote to do it is anyone's guess but the urban myth that the NCAA swore never to do it again is based on alternative facts. They've done it since then on several occasions you did not cite.
    Death penalty or bust!!!***

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    Paysite Policeman Dawg-gone-dawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogcountry1 View Post
    I still don't see the DP happening, but if the NCAA has found that UM won't stop cheating long enough for them to stop their investigation, what other option do they have?
    I see alot of people saying that they don't expect DP. Just curious to your reason. Is it because that is what you want but it would be too good to be true and you don't want to jinx it? Because as laid out in the original post, it is possible and I am feeling lately like it is more likely.
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    Senior Member Dawgology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg-gone-dawgs View Post
    I see alot of people saying that they don't expect DP. Just curious to your reason. Is it because that is what you want but it would be too good to be true and you don't want to jinx it? Because as laid out in the original post, it is possible and I am feeling lately like it is more likely.
    I think this is it exactly. Ya'll are going to start listening to me after all of this.

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    Senior Member BulldogBear's Avatar
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    When reading any of these UMISS penalty threads I hear the 30for30 music in the background of my mind.
    The Liberation will not be televised--- when it arrives like lightning in the skies!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogcountry1 View Post
    I still don't see the DP happening, but if the NCAA has found that UM won't stop cheating long enough for them to stop their investigation, what other option do they have?
    The Baylor example may provide another option for the NCAA.

    Cancellation of non-conference games would set quite a precedent and send a strong message but limit the damage to other schools. The cancellation could be set a year out to give the other schools time to find another opponent. And if they can't, OM has to pay whatever penalty their individual game contract provides.

    A complete DP still seems far-fetched, at least until the 2nd or 3rd NOA comes out. But a modified approach? What was once inconceivable becomes more possible with every passing recruiting class.

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    I think the skepticism for the death penalty comes from the lack of verified information recently. This board has broken many stories via rumors/etc., but it's been a while since we had a verified source (national article w/ sources, NOA #2, etc.) be released and say "Yes, the NCAA has uncovered this, this, this, this, and this thanks to immunity-given interviews with person, person, person, and person." Exaggerated, I know, but you get the point. A lot of rumors have been posted on this site, and while several people here have good track records for accuracy, I think most of us are waiting for something more official regarding what has been discovered before we let ourselves really consider DP-level penalties.

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    Senior Member bulldogcountry1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg-gone-dawgs View Post
    I see alot of people saying that they don't expect DP. Just curious to your reason. Is it because that is what you want but it would be too good to be true and you don't want to jinx it? Because as laid out in the original post, it is possible and I am feeling lately like it is more likely.

    My main reasoning is that I just don't know all the facts, so it's hard for me to expect the worst case punishment. Also, I just couldn't see a big money SEC school being given the DP, unless they kept breaking the rules after sanctions were handed out. But, the more this thing goes on and gets crazier and crazier, it seems possible...if half of the rumors are true.

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    Senior Member Tbonewannabe's Avatar
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    What would a DP do financially to UNM? It isn't like they wouldn't have to pay on their debt while not having games. I would also imagine the SEC would not pay them for the SEC network while they weren't contributing.

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    Senior Member WSOPdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technetium View Post
    I think the skepticism for the death penalty comes from the lack of verified information recently. This board has broken many stories via rumors/etc., but it's been a while since we had a verified source (national article w/ sources, NOA #2, etc.) be released and say "Yes, the NCAA has uncovered this, this, this, this, and this thanks to immunity-given interviews with person, person, person, and person." Exaggerated, I know, but you get the point. A lot of rumors have been posted on this site, and while several people here have good track records for accuracy, I think most of us are waiting for something more official regarding what has been discovered before we let ourselves really consider DP-level penalties.
    A year ago, I would be saying now way in hades is the DP in play.

    But now, with the list of non-stop transgressions and the Network's seemingly "thumbing of the nose at the NCAA in lieu of an ongoing investigation (years in the making, mind you), and given that the NCAA recently placed two TCUN athletic programs on probation coupled with the rumors (please let it be true) that they've been caught in this latest recruiting cycle (post WBB and men's tract probation), how can one say that they're not out of control?

    Hammer time, baby!!!

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    Senior Member maroonmania's Avatar
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    I think its all just complete guesswork until a second NOA's existence and content are publicly verified. They sure aren't getting the DP off of what was in the first NOA. It would carry a stinging probation but would get them nowhere near the DP.

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    Senior Member Dawgology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maroonmania View Post
    I think its all just complete guesswork until a second NOA's existence and content are publicly verified. They sure aren't getting the DP off of what was in the first NOA. It would carry a stinging probation but would get them nowhere near the DP.
    Except that Steve (who has been correct on this the entire time) has said a 2nd NOA is happening.

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    Senior Member maroonmania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgology View Post
    Except that Steve (who has been correct on this the entire time) has said a 2nd NOA is happening.
    Yes, but as much as I believe Steve is getting good information, not even he knows specifically what's in it even if we go ahead and make the assumption they are at least getting one.

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    Senior Member WSOPdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason2succeed View Post
    Excellent research. Post more.

    The answer is yes the DP will definitely be discussed during the COI. Whether they vote to do it is anyone's guess but the urban myth that the NCAA swore never to do it again is based on alternative facts. They've done it since then on several occasions you did not cite.
    From 2012, here's Texas Southern with SEC commish Greg Sankey involved in the punishment that almost resulted in the DP except for the cooperation from the university's president and athletic director who fired the school's football coach (which has NOT occurred from the Bdork and company)...

    Texas Southern athletics, 2012
    In October 2012, the NCAA found Texas Southern University guilty of massive violations in 13 sports over a seven-year period from 2005 to 2012. The most serious violations occurred within the football and men's basketball programs—including academic fraud, illicit benefits given to student athletes, lying on the part of coaches, and lying to the NCAA about self-imposed sanctions. The NCAA deemed TSU a "double repeat violator"; the Tigers had either been on probation or had violations occurring for all but six years since 1992. The NCAA seriously considered a death penalty due to the egregiousness of the violations, as well as TSU's failure to reform itself over the past two decades. However, according to Greg Sankey, chief operating officer of the SEC and a member of the infractions committee, it decided against doing so due to cooperation from President John Rudley and Athletic Director Charles McClelland, as well as the school's corrective measures—including firing football coach Johnnie Cole and forcing the resignation of men's basketball coach Tony Harvey. Instead, the NCAA banned TSU's men's basketball team from the 2013 postseason and banned TSU's football team from the 2013 and 2014 postseason. Earlier, TSU had vacated every game that Tiger teams had won from 2006 to 2010, and vacated all victories in football and women's soccer for the 2010-11 season. [story from Wikipedia]

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    Senior Member Really Clark?'s Avatar
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    By NCAA by-laws you have to be a repeat offender for the death penalty to be on the table under normal major violations. Until we see a NOA that lists violations occurring after OCT 2016, then the COI will not consider the death penalty. The only time it has been discussed or used without the repeat offender tag is when major violations are mixed with a major scandal. Penn St, Baylor, Western Kentucky actually self imposed the death penalty in their case because it was so egregious.

    Morehouse College was a different type of case as the coaches knowingly brought professional soccer players on the team and hide their identities and their was no institutional control, going as far as some not even realizing they had a soccer program to even check with their compliance. They disbanded soccer before the 2 year death penalty was handed out.

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    Senior Member TrapGame's Avatar
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    A believe a 2 year DP with a resident watchdog/supervisor from the NCAA is very plausible. Especially if the rumors are true about getting caught for a third time in November after the NCAA started its initial investigation.

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