Why Ole Miss should be afraid of coming NCAA sanctions

[WSOPdawg]

Warning, Be sure to have a cup of coffee close, because this is somewhat long, but its good for Monday morning discussion.


I find the SMU Death Penalty story from the 1980s fascinating, and for those of you thinking The Cheaters Up North (TCUN) will NOT receive the DP from the NCAA in 2017, I wouldn?t be so sure. While reading about the Pony Express, several other DP cases came to light that while I was aware of, I had somewhat forgotten about.


Morehouse College, 2003
In 2003, the soccer team of Morehouse College in Atlanta was given the Death Penalty by the NCAA while having NOT been previously placed on probation or penalized for infractions. The USA Today article from 2003 (Steve Wieberg, 11/13/2003) quotes the NCAA?s Kay Hawes as saying ?It?s a situation where the committee found there was a complete failure to have a program comply with NCAA rules and that?s not something you see very often.?


Baylor, 2005
Research regarding the Baylor men?s basketball team?s 2004 demise over the murder of a former player, Eric Dotson, (which led Lawrence Roberts to MSU) led to numerous other NCAA violations being uncovered and warranted Death Penalty consideration by the NCAA. With the head coach complicit in the cover-up of Dotson, additional violations included:

(1) paying for player?s tuition;
(2) coaching staff paying for meals, clothing, lodging, transportation;
(3) recruiting violations relating to illegal tryouts;
(4) head coach encouraging boosters to donate to foundation tied to basketball team that
included prospective Baylor recruits (Network anyone???);
(5) failure to report positive drug tests by athletes;
(6) failure by entire coaching staff to ?exercise institutional control over basketball program;?


According to Wikipedia, ?In its final report, the NCAA called the violations at Baylor as serious as those which occurred at SMU almost 20 years earlier. Indeed, Baylor was eligible for the "death penalty" since its men's tennis program was on probation for major violations; the NCAA can hand down the death penalty for a second major violation within five years, even if it occurs in a different sport. However, it praised Baylor for taking prompt action once the violations came to light (in marked contrast to SMU, where there was evidence that administrators knew about the violations and did nothing).?


Several things can be taken from the last paragraph:

First, Baylor WAS eligible for the DP because the tennis team was already on probation. Regarding TCUN, with WBB and men?s track being placed on probation in late October, 2016, they are eligible to be hit with the DP, especially since they may very well have been caught during this last recruiting cycle in late November or December (2016) violating the NCAA rules (AGAIN!!!).

Second, the Baylor administration proactively attacked these problems by firing the head coach and canceling out-of-conference games for the upcoming season. The Cheaters Up North have practically done the exact opposite in terms of taking prompt action. In fact, if rumors are true that the Network continued their act while the NCAA?s investigation was ongoing, woe be unto them!!!

Third, regarding Morehouse? DP ? are we not seeing a complete failure by TCUN to comply with NCAA rules? How so, you might ask?

2013 Tunsil (cash payments from coaches via NFL draft night, loaner cars on 3 or 4 occasions in NOA #1, rumors of housing for parents)

2014 Austin Gohlson (Auburn transfer with rumored immunity for Network info)

2015 Bo Scarborough (Bama RB with rumored immunity for Network info)

2016 Leo Lewis (MSU LB with rumored immunity for Network info)

2016 Greg Little (mother?s recent admission of receiving payment to attend school in Oxford and then backtracking)

2017 Willie Gay (MSU LB rumored to have turned over Network info to NCAA)


Surely lack of institutional control is on the horizon and given that these violations are spanning such a long time-frame and are coming from so many different players, and given what the NCAA did to Morehouse a little more than a decade ago in 2003 (?where there was a complete failure to have a program comply with NCAA rules?) and what they said regarding Baylor in 2005, the argument that the Death Penalty is definitely on the table can definitely be made.

After all, when you?ve been told to shut down improprieties (ie, ongoing investigation since 2013) and continue to violate the governing rules (from 2010 - present), should any one be surprised when it all gets taken away?

[starkvegasdawg]

[WSOPdawg]

Not exactly the response I was expecting, but it did make me laugh!!!

[bulldogcountry1]

I still don't see the DP happening, but if the NCAA has found that UM won't stop cheating long enough for them to stop their investigation, what other option do they have?

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

I still don't see the DP happening, but if the NCAA has found that UM won't stop cheating long enough for them to stop their investigation, what other option do they have?

I see alot of people saying that they don't expect DP. Just curious to your reason. Is it because that is what you want but it would be too good to be true and you don't want to jinx it? Because as laid out in the original post, it is possible and I am feeling lately like it is more likely.

[Dawgology]

I see alot of people saying that they don't expect DP. Just curious to your reason. Is it because that is what you want but it would be too good to be true and you don't want to jinx it? Because as laid out in the original post, it is possible and I am feeling lately like it is more likely.

I think this is it exactly. Ya'll are going to start listening to me after all of this.

[bulldogcountry1]

I see alot of people saying that they don't expect DP. Just curious to your reason. Is it because that is what you want but it would be too good to be true and you don't want to jinx it? Because as laid out in the original post, it is possible and I am feeling lately like it is more likely.

My main reasoning is that I just don't know all the facts, so it's hard for me to expect the worst case punishment. Also, I just couldn't see a big money SEC school being given the DP, unless they kept breaking the rules after sanctions were handed out. But, the more this thing goes on and gets crazier and crazier, it seems possible...if half of the rumors are true.

[sandwolf]

I see alot of people saying that they don't expect DP. Just curious to your reason. Is it because that is what you want but it would be too good to be true and you don't want to jinx it? Because as laid out in the original post, it is possible and I am feeling lately like it is more likely.

It is delusional to think that the death penalty is even a consideration based on what was in the first NOA. And for it to become a legitimate consideration, the amended NOA would have to be completely nuclear. They would need something like hard evidence of OM coaches actively working with a group of boosters to provide benefits to recruits or players (in other words, solid evidence of the network), or they would need for the Tunsil draft night fiasco to have lead them to hard evidence of a big pay for play scheme involving multiple players totaling large dollar amounts.......the allegations have to be eye popping.

The NCAA has enough to hammer OM, and I think that is exactly what they are going to do. But they aren't going to issue the death penalty to a school that isn't a repeat offender without hard evidence of widespread cheating throughout the program, and that is really hard to come by without subpoena power.

[Dawg-gone-dawgs]

...without hard evidence

This is it. We all know it is happening, it is just whether or not they were smart enough to cover it up. I honestly think the NCAA does have hard evidence of this happening and they are about to go Negan on OM.

[iPat09]

This is it. We all know it is happening, it is just whether or not they were smart enough to cover it up well enough. I honestly think the NCAA does have hard evidence of this happening and they are about to go Negan on OM.

You mean like this?

https://youtu.be/EtebQUwGNO0

[WSOPdawg]

It is delusional to think that the death penalty is even a consideration based on what was in the first NOA. And for it to become a legitimate consideration, the amended NOA would have to be completely nuclear. They would need something like hard evidence of OM coaches actively working with a group of boosters to provide benefits to recruits or players (in other words, solid evidence of the network), or they would need for the Tunsil draft night fiasco to have lead them to hard evidence of a big pay for play scheme involving multiple players totaling large dollar amounts.......the allegations have to be eye popping.

The NCAA has enough to hammer OM, and I think that is exactly what they are going to do. But they aren't going to issue the death penalty to a school that isn't a repeat offender without hard evidence of widespread cheating throughout the program, and that is really hard to come by without subpoena power.

Like Tunsil texts implicating Barney on cash payments, or prospective Tunsil's familyhousing being paid for by a booster, or Coach Hugh Freeze taking prospects to a booster's house for "freebie benefits," or... oh for God's sake, they've been doing this stuff for the better part of a decade now.

This is exactly why Ole Miss should be worried about the NCAA and what they're gonna do to their program. As Dawg-Gone alluded to, here comes Lucille.

[Johnson85]

Like Tunsil texts implicating Barney on cash payments, or prospective Tunsil's familyhousing being paid for by a booster, or Coach Hugh Freeze taking prospects to a booster's house for "freebie benefits," or... oh for God's sake, they've been doing this stuff for the better part of a decade now.

This is exactly why Ole Miss should be worried about the NCAA and what they're gonna do to their program. As Dawg-Gone alluded to, here comes Lucille.

Ole Miss should be worried, but not about the death penalty. The death penaly would impact other members of the conference too much. None of the power conferences woudl want the death penalty to be on the table for any of their members. Sanctions thath cripple a program but dont' mess with TV contracts or scheduling conferences can handle, but they're not going to sign off on a situation that screws up their tv schedule for football, so it's not going to happen. At worst Ole Miss would end up having to fill out a team with mostly walk-ons.

[smootness]

It is delusional to think that the death penalty is even a consideration based on what was in the first NOA. And for it to become a legitimate consideration, the amended NOA would have to be completely nuclear. They would need something like hard evidence of OM coaches actively working with a group of boosters to provide benefits to recruits or players (in other words, solid evidence of the network), or they would need for the Tunsil draft night fiasco to have lead them to hard evidence of a big pay for play scheme involving multiple players totaling large dollar amounts.......the allegations have to be eye popping.

The NCAA has enough to hammer OM, and I think that is exactly what they are going to do. But they aren't going to issue the death penalty to a school that isn't a repeat offender without hard evidence of widespread cheating throughout the program, and that is really hard to come by without subpoena power.

Exactly this. We can talk all day about rumors of what is going on and what the NCAA has found or may find or whatever. But unless it's on the NOA, it won't affect anything. So we have to see the addendum before we can start to speculate on punishment. The violations in the first NOA are probably good for a bowl ban for a year or two and a pretty significant loss of scholarships. In order to reach a place where they considered the death penalty, the addendum would have to be about 5 times as bad as what is on the initial NOA.

[WesternSkyDawg]

I still don't see the DP happening, but if the NCAA has found that UM won't stop cheating long enough for them to stop their investigation, what other option do they have?

The Baylor example may provide another option for the NCAA.

Cancellation of non-conference games would set quite a precedent and send a strong message but limit the damage to other schools. The cancellation could be set a year out to give the other schools time to find another opponent. And if they can't, OM has to pay whatever penalty their individual game contract provides.

A complete DP still seems far-fetched, at least until the 2nd or 3rd NOA comes out. But a modified approach? What was once inconceivable becomes more possible with every passing recruiting class.

[thf24]

If Barney sang as rumored, then they've got them pegged in the Morehouse College situation. If so then things will get very interesting when the 2nd NOA goes public.

[Reason2succeed]

Excellent research. Post more.

The answer is yes the DP will definitely be discussed during the COI. Whether they vote to do it is anyone's guess but the urban myth that the NCAA swore never to do it again is based on alternative facts. They've done it since then on several occasions you did not cite.

[WSOPdawg]

Excellent research. Post more.

The answer is yes the DP will definitely be discussed during the COI. Whether they vote to do it is anyone's guess but the urban myth that the NCAA swore never to do it again is based on alternative facts. They've done it since then on several occasions you did not cite.

From 2012, here's Texas Southern with SEC commish Greg Sankey involved in the punishment that almost resulted in the DP except for the cooperation from the university's president and athletic director who fired the school's football coach (which has NOT occurred from the Bdork and company)...

Texas Southern athletics, 2012
In October 2012, the NCAA found Texas Southern University guilty of massive violations in 13 sports over a seven-year period from 2005 to 2012. The most serious violations occurred within the football and men's basketball programs—including academic fraud, illicit benefits given to student athletes, lying on the part of coaches, and lying to the NCAA about self-imposed sanctions. The NCAA deemed TSU a "double repeat violator"; the Tigers had either been on probation or had violations occurring for all but six years since 1992. The NCAA seriously considered a death penalty due to the egregiousness of the violations, as well as TSU's failure to reform itself over the past two decades. However, according to Greg Sankey, chief operating officer of the SEC and a member of the infractions committee, it decided against doing so due to cooperation from President John Rudley and Athletic Director Charles McClelland, as well as the school's corrective measures—including firing football coach Johnnie Cole and forcing the resignation of men's basketball coach Tony Harvey. Instead, the NCAA banned TSU's men's basketball team from the 2013 postseason and banned TSU's football team from the 2013 and 2014 postseason. Earlier, TSU had vacated every game that Tiger teams had won from 2006 to 2010, and vacated all victories in football and women's soccer for the 2010-11 season. [story from Wikipedia]

[BulldogBear]

When reading any of these UMISS penalty threads I hear the 30for30 music in the background of my mind.

[Technetium]

I think the skepticism for the death penalty comes from the lack of verified information recently. This board has broken many stories via rumors/etc., but it's been a while since we had a verified source (national article w/ sources, NOA #2, etc.) be released and say "Yes, the NCAA has uncovered this, this, this, this, and this thanks to immunity-given interviews with person, person, person, and person." Exaggerated, I know, but you get the point. A lot of rumors have been posted on this site, and while several people here have good track records for accuracy, I think most of us are waiting for something more official regarding what has been discovered before we let ourselves really consider DP-level penalties.

[WSOPdawg]

I think the skepticism for the death penalty comes from the lack of verified information recently. This board has broken many stories via rumors/etc., but it's been a while since we had a verified source (national article w/ sources, NOA #2, etc.) be released and say "Yes, the NCAA has uncovered this, this, this, this, and this thanks to immunity-given interviews with person, person, person, and person." Exaggerated, I know, but you get the point. A lot of rumors have been posted on this site, and while several people here have good track records for accuracy, I think most of us are waiting for something more official regarding what has been discovered before we let ourselves really consider DP-level penalties.

A year ago, I would be saying now way in hades is the DP in play.

But now, with the list of non-stop transgressions and the Network's seemingly "thumbing of the nose at the NCAA in lieu of an ongoing investigation (years in the making, mind you), and given that the NCAA recently placed two TCUN athletic programs on probation coupled with the rumors (please let it be true) that they've been caught in this latest recruiting cycle (post WBB and men's tract probation), how can one say that they're not out of control?

Hammer time, baby!!!