Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 79

Thread: Bonds and Clemens denied again.

  1. #21
    Senior Member BB30's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Columbus, Ms
    Posts
    2,123
    vCash
    3523
    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.

    He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.
    List your guys that didn't use that you would put ahead of him. I also don't think Bonds was the greatest ever but the argument can be made that he was and would have definitely been up there had he not taken steroids. He hit at a career clip of .298 with over 500 stolen bags and almost 2000 RBIs.

  2. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gold, Mississippi
    Posts
    26,385
    vCash
    1094082
    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.

    He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.
    Put your hate aside for 11 minutes and just watch. Barry Bonds is the GOAT!


  3. #23
    Senior Member shoeless joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,636
    vCash
    3129
    Quote Originally Posted by BB30 View Post
    List your guys that didn't use that you would put ahead of him. I also don't think Bonds was the greatest ever but the argument can be made that he was and would have definitely been up there had he not taken steroids. He hit at a career clip of .298 with over 500 stolen bags and almost 2000 RBIs.

    What were his power and RBI avgs before using? Those numbers don't add up to "greatest hitter of all time". And stolen bags don't make you a good hitter.

    Ted Williams is the greatest of all time. He hit for avg and power. 521career HR with some of his peak years spent in military service of WWII and Korea. Great hitter, great American

    DiMaggio, Aaron, Ruth,are all up there. Rose, mantle, mays are next tier along with some old old school guys like Cobb.

    Bonds had great numbers in the 90s but didn't start putting up all time greatest numbers until 2000. The same time his body began changing. Age 35-39 seasons he averaged 51 HR and 108 RBI. THAT is 100% due to steroids. Like was stated earlier, longevity and sustained numbers later into career are steroid hallmarks.

    Williams had a great power year at age 38 w/38 HR but that was a bit of an outlier later in his career. Also career batting avg is not even close. Williams hit below .300 one time and that was at age 40. Plus, if in the 3 years he missed for WWII you add in his average HR totals from the previous and post 4 years he would have 100 more HR.

    There may be some debate over the top 5 or 10 but really is none for the greatest hitter of all time.

  4. #24
    Senior Member shoeless joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,636
    vCash
    3129
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg61 View Post
    Put your hate aside for 11 minutes and just watch. Barry Bonds is the GOAT!

    No hate. I was a huge bonds guy in the 90s. Loved his skill set. He was a great hitter. Maybe even one of the best but not THE best.

  5. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gold, Mississippi
    Posts
    26,385
    vCash
    1094082
    Problem with you discrediting every one of Bonds great years is that it was never proven that he took steroids leaving the burden of proof in baseball's hands not in Bonds hands. Him passing every piss test was his burden of proof that he passed every time so now if you want to kill a man you gotta prove he did it. Just like a murder trial.

    Also let's say he did take steroids for arguments sake. You act like he was the only one. His numbers dwarf the rest of the steroid era players numbers. You think none of the pitchers throwing him the ball took steroids? He doesn't have an edge when everyone else has the same edge as him. (for the record I do think Bonds took steroids but that doesn't matter when it hasn't been proven he did just like it doesn't matter I think OJ killed Nicole. Gotta prove it. It's that whole "Innocent till proven guilty" thing that our entire legal system is based off of.

  6. #26
    Senior Member shoeless joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,636
    vCash
    3129
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg61 View Post
    Problem with you discrediting every one of Bonds great years is that it was never proven that he took steroids leaving the burden of proof in baseball's hands not in Bonds hands. Him passing every piss test was his burden of proof that he passed every time so now if you want to kill a man you gotta prove he did it. Just like a murder trial.

    Also let's say he did take steroids for arguments sake. You act like he was the only one. His numbers dwarf the rest of the steroid era players numbers. You think none of the pitchers throwing him the ball took steroids? He doesn't have an edge when everyone else has the same edge as him. (for the record I do think Bonds took steroids but that doesn't matter when it hasn't been proven he did just like it doesn't matter I think OJ killed Nicole. Gotta prove it. It's that whole "Innocent till proven guilty" thing that our entire legal system is based off of.
    Who doesn't think bonds used? Everybody knows he used. The proof is his body.

    His numbers don't dwarf everybody else! Take a look at Sosa and McGwire during their peak using years. Check out palmeiro and A Rod. There are others but that off the top of my head.

    Pitchers did use...but it didn't help them as much on the mound. It helped them get on the mound and stay on the mound. (Such as Clemens in 05 NLDS.) I'm not picking bonds out of everybody else, I'm including him in with all users. They cheated...end of story.

    He was great and a first ballot guy before using, and I think he'll end up there. But his single season and career HR records are bogus. Everybody knows that. And id be willing to bet the fact that he holds those records plays into your thinking of him as the greatest.

  7. #27
    Senior Member BB30's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Columbus, Ms
    Posts
    2,123
    vCash
    3523
    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    What were his power and RBI avgs before using? Those numbers don't add up to "greatest hitter of all time". And stolen bags don't make you a good hitter.

    Ted Williams is the greatest of all time. He hit for avg and power. 521career HR with some of his peak years spent in military service of WWII and Korea. Great hitter, great American

    DiMaggio, Aaron, Ruth,are all up there. Rose, mantle, mays are next tier along with some old old school guys like Cobb.

    Bonds had great numbers in the 90s but didn't start putting up all time greatest numbers until 2000. The same time his body began changing. Age 35-39 seasons he averaged 51 HR and 108 RBI. THAT is 100% due to steroids. Like was stated earlier, longevity and sustained numbers later into career are steroid hallmarks.

    Williams had a great power year at age 38 w/38 HR but that was a bit of an outlier later in his career. Also career batting avg is not even close. Williams hit below .300 one time and that was at age 40. Plus, if in the 3 years he missed for WWII you add in his average HR totals from the previous and post 4 years he would have 100 more HR.

    There may be some debate over the top 5 or 10 but really is none for the greatest hitter of all time.
    And that is why I said I don't think he is the greatest of all time just that he could be in the conversation. I also don't think you can compare hitters from different generations straight up. In Bond's era he is arguably the best. From 90-00 he had over 100 RBIs just about every season and I would consider SB a somewhat important stat when comparing hitters. To have SB you have to get on base and getting on base is a part of hitting no matter how you reached base. Knowing the K zone and having a high ob % is just as important if not more important than batting average. He also averaged around 100 runs scored from 86-2000 which is pretty dang impressive.

  8. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gold, Mississippi
    Posts
    26,385
    vCash
    1094082
    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    The proof is his body.
    What? So we just gonna deem people steroid users cause of their bodies now? Ok. Ricky Henderson, Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas, Randy Johnson are all now steroid users. The proof is their bodies.

  9. #29
    Senior Member shoeless joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,636
    vCash
    3129
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg61 View Post
    What? So we just gonna deem people steroid users cause of their bodies now? Ok. Ricky Henderson, Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas, Randy Johnson are all now steroid users. The proof is their bodies.
    If you can't see a gigantic marked difference in bonds body from 98 to 2000 then I can't help you and you're reasoning on his career makes more since to me now. Hell his hat sized increased drastically in his mid 30s!!!

    All players mature and fill out in their 20s but the Guys you mentioned never had as drastic a body change late in their career like bonds.

    You're missing the point anyway. You said you believe he used...do you believe he would have been the single season and all time HR leader without using?

  10. #30
    Senior Member shoeless joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,636
    vCash
    3129
    Quote Originally Posted by BB30 View Post
    And that is why I said I don't think he is the greatest of all time just that he could be in the conversation. I also don't think you can compare hitters from different generations straight up. In Bond's era he is arguably the best. From 90-00 he had over 100 RBIs just about every season and I would consider SB a somewhat important stat when comparing hitters. To have SB you have to get on base and getting on base is a part of hitting no matter how you reached base. Knowing the K zone and having a high ob % is just as important if not more important than batting average. He also averaged around 100 runs scored from 86-2000 which is pretty dang impressive.

    Based on 90-98 bonds is easy first ballot HOF.

  11. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gold, Mississippi
    Posts
    26,385
    vCash
    1094082
    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    do you believe he would have been the single season and all time HR leader without using?
    Yes. He had his swing grooved for his damage area. Anything pitched in that area was destroyed every time. He was unpitchable for 5 years straight. Are his homeruns still homeruns without steroids? Yes.

  12. #32
    Senior Member shoeless joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,636
    vCash
    3129
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg61 View Post
    Yes. He had his swing grooved for his damage area. Anything pitched in that area was destroyed every time. He was unpitchable for 5 years straight. Are his homeruns still homeruns without steroids? Yes.

    Good Lord...never mind. I'm out.

    Increased HR production league wide during that era but bonds woulda hit just as many without them...good grief

  13. #33
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gold, Mississippi
    Posts
    26,385
    vCash
    1094082
    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    Increased HR production league wide during that era but bonds woulda hit just as many without them...good grief
    He woulda hit MORE homeruns without steroids because he wouldn't of gotten blackballed by MLB costing him his last 5 years of production. 40 year old Bonds with no steroids gets traded to the Yankees and still smashes 40 homeruns with that tiny right porch.

  14. #34
    Senior Member fader2103's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,385
    vCash
    3116
    I admit one of the hardest things to do in sports is to hit a baseball. Barry Bonds definitely is not the best hitter ever.

    Pete Rose, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Roger Hornsby... The list could go along way before Barry is mentioned. Most Homeruns don't make you the best hitter

  15. #35
    Senior Member BB30's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Columbus, Ms
    Posts
    2,123
    vCash
    3523
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg61 View Post
    He woulda hit MORE homeruns without steroids because he wouldn't of gotten blackballed by MLB costing him his last 5 years of production. 40 year old Bonds with no steroids gets traded to the Yankees and still smashes 40 homeruns with that tiny right porch.
    You have lost your mind if you don't think steroids led to a chunk of those HRs. Ill even take in to account for sake of argument.. lets say they did not effect his power at all.. they most certainly prolonged his career much further than missing out on 5 years of production. He would have retired quite a bit earlier. And saying Ken Griffey Jr did steroids is laughable he didn't gain 40 pounds of muscle seemingly overnight. No way bonds hits 70 homers in a season without roids. What he did was impressive no doubt. But he would not have done it without juicing. There are guys now that are better true straight up hitters than Bonds and arent coming close to 70+ HR. IMO what made Bonds special was his ability to get on base, steal bags, and hit for a decent average. He was a complete player with a good mix of power and speed. Had he not done roids he would have already been in the HOF and not because of his power at the end of his career.

  16. #36
    Senior Member BB30's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Columbus, Ms
    Posts
    2,123
    vCash
    3523
    Quote Originally Posted by fader2103 View Post
    I admit one of the hardest things to do in sports is to hit a baseball. Barry Bonds definitely is not the best hitter ever.

    Pete Rose, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Roger Hornsby... The list could go along way before Barry is mentioned. Most Homeruns don't make you the best hitter
    Can't compare generations. During Bond's playing days he was arguably the best. If you compile BA, OBP, EBH, RBIs, SB, and runs scored he ranks up there pretty high.

  17. #37
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    15,079
    vCash
    3000
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg61 View Post
    He woulda hit MORE homeruns without steroids because he wouldn't of gotten blackballed by MLB costing him his last 5 years of production. 40 year old Bonds with no steroids gets traded to the Yankees and still smashes 40 homeruns with that tiny right porch.
    Holy crap.

    40-year-old Bonds with no steroids is likely out of the game after hitting 15 as a 38-year-old.

  18. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gold, Mississippi
    Posts
    26,385
    vCash
    1094082
    Since we will just keep running in circles here let me ask y'all something. In your opinion do you think MLB and Bud Selig encouraged steroid use to bring fans back with homeruns right after the strike season? Did they turn their back to it when Sosa and McGwire were going after Maris's record? Don't punish Bonds for being the best during the timeframe he was forced to play in. It's not his fault his direct competition was doing it before him. His livelihood and wallet were directly influenced by home many homeruns he could hit. What kinda choice is it for Bonds when McGwire, Canseco, Sosa etc are getting monster contracts because they are hitting lots of homeruns? Don't take it and maybe you don't get an extra $200 million. You're talking about fierce competitors here. When their direct competition is winning while taking steroids they can either keep up or potentially be out a job in MLB. Everyone is every sport was taking steroids during the 90's. Picking and choosing who gets to be in the HOF is a ****ing joke. Put everyone of them in the HOF and put a giant message about steroids and the steroid era all around the timeframe. This picking and choosing on who was clean and who wasn't is total bullshit. It can't be fixed it can't be made right. Put everyone of them into the HOF. It was baseball's fault for encouraging it anyways.

  19. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gold, Mississippi
    Posts
    26,385
    vCash
    1094082
    Quote Originally Posted by smootness View Post
    Holy crap.

    40-year-old Bonds with no steroids is likely out of the game after hitting 15 as a 38-year-old.
    Bonds would hit 30 homeruns in a Yankees uniform today with how grooved his swing was/is. Don't argue with me about my opinion on Bonds. You will never change it.

  20. #40
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    15,079
    vCash
    3000
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawg61 View Post
    Bonds would hit 30 homeruns in a Yankees uniform today with how grooved his swing was/is. Don't argue with me about my opinion on Bonds. You will never change it.
    Griffey had a beautiful swing, too. Chipper as well. Your body at some point breaks down. Bonds' didn't. Hmmmm....wonder why that could be....

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Disclaimer: Elitedawgs is a privately owned and operated forum that is managed by alumni of Mississippi State University. This website is in no way affiliated with the Mississippi State University, The Southeastern Conference (SEC) or the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA). The views and opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the post author and may not reflect the views of other members of this forum or elitedawgs.com. The interactive nature of the elitedawgs.com forums makes it impossible for elitedawgs.com to assume responsibility for any of the content posted at this site. Ideas, thoughts, suggestion, comments, opinions, advice and observations made by participants at elitedawgs.com are not endorsed by elitedawgs.com
Elitedawgs: A Mississippi State Fan Forum, Mississippi State Football, Mississippi State Basketball, Mississippi State Baseball, Mississippi State Athletics. Mississippi State message board.