Bonds and Clemens denied again.

[fader2103]

Can't compare generations. During Bond's playing days he was arguably the best. If you compile BA, OBP, EBH, RBIs, SB, and runs scored he ranks up there pretty high.

The guy I was responding to said he was best ever. So yes you have to compare generations. If he said best in this generation he would have an argument, but he didn't say that.

[Dawg61]

The guy I was responding to said he was best ever. So yes you have to compare generations. If he said best in this generation he would have an argument, but he didn't say that.

Wait...you saying dudes today wouldn't smash the **** outta pitching in 1950? You think Bonds 73 homeruns are silly try putting him up against 1950's fastballs. He'd hit 146 homeruns in one season. Comparing generations is retarded in any sport. You can't do it. Wilt Chamberlin would never score 100 and get 50 boards if he's playing vs current NBA players. Ben Hogan doesn't win nearly as many tournaments if he's playing in current PGA golf. Bonds is the best ever in this current generation which makes him the best ever in any generation.

[smootness]

Wait...you saying dudes today wouldn't smash the **** outta pitching in 1950? You think Bonds 73 homeruns are silly try putting him up against 1950's fastballs. He'd hit 146 homeruns in one season. Comparing generations is retarded in any sport. You can't do it. Wilt Chamberlin would never score 100 and get 50 boards if he's playing vs current NBA players. Ben Hogan doesn't win nearly as many tournaments if he's playing in current PGA golf. Bonds is the best ever in this current generation which makes him the best ever in any generation.

This argument is always asinine. Of course Ted Williams, given 1950s development, equipment, and technology, would not hit current pitching well if you just picked him up and placed him in the game today. Would Ted Williams be a monster if he grew up and developed in the current day? Of course he would. Just like Bonds, having grown up in the 1950s, wouldn't be 2001 Barry Bonds. All you can do is compare players against their own generation, yes. But it's the best compared to his own era that should be considered the best, not just the best current player.

[RougeDawg]

Hear,hear my good man! Chipper my all time favorite, he's first ballot for sure. Don't think Andruw gets in. Shame that his career petered out a little to early. He beat himself up running into fences and diving around and the injuries took their toll on his body. I know I'm old but Hank Aaron is my hr champ not bonds. Hank did it right and is a classy man!

Chipper along with 75% of those braves teams were steroid users. And before you say "no he didn't" a player on that team gave me a list of the guys using during that time and team. Chipper just never bulked up like the rest. Andruw did not use if that makes you feel any better.

[Dawg61]

Dude gives you a list. Must be true!!

Here Rouge I am going to give you a list of women I have ****ed. It is true cause I have given you a list.

1. Kate Upton
2. Jennifer Lopez
3. Cindy Crawford
4. Every Victoria Secret model ever
5. Marilyn Monroe (not proud of it)
6. Princess Diana (before the crash, RIP)
7. Jessica Rabbit
8. Selma Hayek
9. Michelle Obama (don't judge)
10. The Olsen twins (they were legal you pervs)

[fader2103]

Like Smootness said, you can't just say Bonds would hammer 1930's-1950's pitching. Would he hammer them if he didn't always workout and bulk up? Smootness also said what if Ted Williams played in today's game?

Would Babe Ruth hit 1000 home runs, if he worked out and was not a drunk almost every time he showed up to the ballpark?

I get your argument about generational gaps in baseball, but you can't say Bonds is the greatest all time, when you have players who didn't have today's technologies with baseball still hitting just as good numbers.

[Bubb Rubb]

Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.

He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.

How do you know who didn't use? How do you know who else was using when Bonds was? That's why these are futile debates. Players have taken performance enhancers back to the golden era. Dimaggio talked about "vitamin shots" that everyone of that era were taking...that turned out to be methamphetamine. Players in the 60s and 70s took amphetamines like they were tic tacs. Players in the 80s did a lot of cocaine. Tim Raines, a new hall of famer, once admitted that he had a vial of coke break in his back pocket during a game.

When sports writers single out players in the steroids era, they are being very hypocritical. I'm not making excuses for the players, but you have to apply these arguments consistently. Players have been looking for an edge all the way back to the turn of the century when they soaked their hands in horse piss to prevent blisters.

You can't say Bonds was so much better because of steroids, because he was getting hits off pitchers who may also have been juicing. If his performance was elevated, so was the performance of many players around him. You can't just make a blanket statement that he was so much better because of it. Ken Caminiti estimated that 80% or more of the league was juicing at one point.

[shoeless joe]

Chipper along with 75% of those braves teams were steroid users. And before you say "no he didn't" a player on that team gave me a list of the guys using during that time and team. Chipper just never bulked up like the rest. Andruw did not use if that makes you feel any better.

If you know it then a lot of folks know it...and what you're saying doesn't jive.

You also must know more than glavine and smoltz because they both have talked about how it wasn't rampant on those teams. Keep in mind that chipper was an ass hole and a lot of folks didn't like him on those teams so I'm not surprised someone close or on the team would throw that out there. I'm sure he had some supplements he took but I'm finding it hard to believe he used based on all available evidence.

[Dawg61]

How do you know who didn't use? How do you know who else was using when Bonds was? That's why these are futile debates. Players have taken performance enhancers back to the golden era. Dimaggio talked about "vitamin shots" that everyone of that era were taking...that turned out to be methamphetamine. Players in the 60s and 70s took amphetamines like they were tic tacs. Players in the 80s did a lot of cocaine. Tim Raines, a new hall of famer, once admitted that he had a vial of coke break in his back pocket during a game.

When sports writers single out players in the steroids era, they are being very hypocritical. I'm not making excuses for the players, but you have to apply these arguments consistently. Players have been looking for an edge all the way back to the turn of the century when they soaked their hands in horse piss to prevent blisters.

You can't say Bonds was so much better because of steroids, because he was getting hits off pitchers who may also have been juicing. If his performance was elevated, so was the performance of many players around him. You can't just make a blanket statement that he was so much better because of it. Ken Caminiti estimated that 80% or more of the league was juicing at one point.

This!! All of it!!

[smootness]

How do you know who didn't use? How do you know who else was using when Bonds was? That's why these are futile debates. Players have taken performance enhancers back to the golden era. Dimaggio talked about "vitamin shots" that everyone of that era were taking...that turned out to be methamphetamine. Players in the 60s and 70s took amphetamines like they were tic tacs. Players in the 80s did a lot of cocaine. Tim Raines, a new hall of famer, once admitted that he had a vial of coke break in his back pocket during a game.

When sports writers single out players in the steroids era, they are being very hypocritical. I'm not making excuses for the players, but you have to apply these arguments consistently. Players have been looking for an edge all the way back to the turn of the century when they soaked their hands in horse piss to prevent blisters.

You can't say Bonds was so much better because of steroids, because he was getting hits off pitchers who may also have been juicing. If his performance was elevated, so was the performance of many players around him. You can't just make a blanket statement that he was so much better because of it. Ken Caminiti estimated that 80% or more of the league was juicing at one point.

I don't. But I know Bonds did. That removes him from the debate. Sorry.

[Bubb Rubb]

I don't. But I know Bonds did. That removes him from the debate. Sorry.

OK, so you eliminate all of them, or you eliminate non of them. You just can't selectively enforce it. We "know" of a lot of people who did it. We're all fairly certain that Bagwell and Piazza did it (now HOF'ers). There are guys, like our own Palmiero, who should be in the HOF because he is on the very exclusive 3000 hit/500 homerun club. When did they start using? When did they stop. How many times? Who did they face who was using? It's just wrong to selectively penalize a few when so many of the era were doing it. It's also reasonable to assume that some of our "poster boys" of that era, who we would never suspect would juice, probably did it, too.

I'm not excusing Bonds, and I hated the guy as a player. But I'm also not going to deny his talent - he's easily in the discussion of one of the best players of all time, regardless of steroid use.

[Dawg61]

It's also reasonable to assume that some of our "poster boys" of that era, who we would never suspect would juice, probably did it, too.

Cal Ripken

[smootness]

OK, so you eliminate all of them, or you eliminate non of them. You just can't selectively enforce it. We "know" of a lot of people who did it. We're all fairly certain that Bagwell and Piazza did it (now HOF'ers). There are guys, like our own Palmiero, who should be in the HOF because he is on the very exclusive 3000 hit/500 homerun club. When did they start using? When did they stop. How many times? Who did they face who was using? It's just wrong to selectively penalize a few when so many of the era were doing it. It's also reasonable to assume that some of our "poster boys" of that era, who we would never suspect would juice, probably did it, too.

I'm not excusing Bonds, and I hated the guy as a player. But I'm also not going to deny his talent - he's easily in the discussion of one of the best players of all time, regardless of steroid use.

Yes, I can. I remove those who I strongly believe cheated. Bonds is one of them.

Bonds was a truly great player before HGH, no question. And his results once he did are the best ever, no question. But I couldn't care less what he did after he started taking HGH, I don't count it.

[Thrill1]

Pretty soon these steroird users are going to be seen touring with Pete Rose. Congrats to Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Ivan Rodriguez for making it.

Hate to tell you bud, but Bonds and Clemens actually GAINED votes from last year. Specifically for Bonds his ballot pct has risen from 37% in 2015 to 54% this year. Clemens on a similar path. And many writers point to the fact that with Selig being inducted by the Veterans committee, this will open the door for voters otherwise on the fence about Bonds/Clemens and others. May take 2-3 more years but Barry will get in.

And to chime in on the above discussion, I'm fine with Ted Williams being the best all-time hitter, but Bonds is certainly in the discussion of best all-time player. Let's remember he won 3 of his 7 (!) MVPs before Balco was mentioned. By comparison, Jeff Bagwell won 1.

[Bubb Rubb]

Yes, I can. I remove those who I strongly believe cheated. Bonds is one of them.

Bonds was a truly great player before HGH, no question. And his results once he did are the best ever, no question. But I couldn't care less what he did after he started taking HGH, I don't count it.

My bad. When I said "you" can't enforce it...it was more a general "baseball can't selectively enforce it." We all have our own opinions and biases. I just have a problem with baseball writers, most of whom never put on a set of leggings in their lives, selectively choosing who is worthy and not worthy for the hall based on those biases. At the end of the day, you deserve it or you don't. And if cheating got you there, well, other cheaters have been rewarded, so where do you draw the line? It's hard to selectively enforce those things.

[smootness]

My bad. When I said "you" can't enforce it...it was more a general "baseball can't selectively enforce it." We all have our own opinions and biases. I just have a problem with baseball writers, most of whom never put on a set of leggings in their lives, selectively choosing who is worthy and not worthy for the hall based on those biases. At the end of the day, you deserve it or you don't. And if cheating got you there, well, other cheaters have been rewarded, so where do you draw the line? It's hard to selectively enforce those things.

Their entire job in voting is to determine who is worthy and not worthy of the HOF. They can choose whatever criteria they want.

Those who were clearly cheaters should be out. No, you won't catch everyone. That's life. We don't close down all our prisons because we'll never catch them all.

[Dawg61]

Their entire job in voting is to determine who is worthy and not worthy of the HOF. They can choose whatever criteria they want.

Those who were clearly cheaters should be out. No, you won't catch everyone. That's life. We don't close down all our prisons because we'll never catch them all.

As long as they keep out the guys you don't like anyways what's it matter right? What happens if they keep out your favorite player next though? You gonna find fault with the system then? Just outta curiosity who is your favorite player that is in the HOF? Would you be pissed if they refused to vote him in cause of allegedly taking steroids during a time when everyone was taking steroids? Nobody gives a shit till the shit is on your doorstep.

[BB30]

If you know it then a lot of folks know it...and what you're saying doesn't jive.

You also must know more than glavine and smoltz because they both have talked about how it wasn't rampant on those teams. Keep in mind that chipper was an ass hole and a lot of folks didn't like him on those teams so I'm not surprised someone close or on the team would throw that out there. I'm sure he had some supplements he took but I'm finding it hard to believe he used based on all available evidence.

Since Glavine and Smoltz would just come out and throw teammates under the bus and all.... That stuff was on every team during that time period. Not saying Chipper used or didn't but the fact that Glavine and Smoltz said it wasn't rampant doesn't really mean anything.

[BB30]

As long as they keep out the guys you don't like anyways what's it matter right? What happens if they keep out your favorite player next though? You gonna find fault with the system then? Just outta curiosity who is your favorite player that is in the HOF? Would you be pissed if they refused to vote him in cause of allegedly taking steroids during a time when everyone was taking steroids? Nobody gives a shit till the shit is on your doorstep.

Wow you are genuinely upset. He will probably get in at some point and was a good player. That being said roids definitely benefited him you can argue all you want that it didn't but you don't go from 30 HRs to 77 just because your swing gets in a "groove" which btw doesn't make any sense. Bonds hit balls out that were pitched all over the zone in and out of it. He hit those same balls 10 years earlier they just weren't leaving the yard.

[Dawg61]

Wow you are genuinely upset. He will probably get in at some point and was a good player. That being said roids definitely benefited him you can argue all you want that it didn't but you don't go from 30 HRs to 77 just because your swing gets in a "groove" which btw doesn't make any sense. Bonds hit balls out that were pitched all over the zone in and out of it. He hit those same balls 10 years earlier they just weren't leaving the yard.

Barry Bonds is my favorite baseball player ever. He is nowhere close to being my favorite baseball person ever. He is a tremendous asshole and supremely arrogant. I think baseball and baseball writers have let their personal feelings towards Bonds the person justify their unwillingness to vote Bonds the player into the HOF. That is disgusting to me. Especially when you factor in that the man has never been proven to have taken steroids meaning we no longer live in an innocent till PROVEN guilty America now. It's just a popularity contest at this point. Anyone telling you different is full of shit.