A Song of Ice and Fire - Theories Thread - **SPOILERS** for Game of Thrones Show

[BulldogBear]

As promised, this is the thread for discussing book theories. It's late right now but I'll list below some things I have figured out as well as theories and predictions that I subscribe to as well as couple that I'm not convinced of yet but find interesting and am being open minded about. Y'all let me know a couple you want me to tackle first and I'll give the long versions one at a time.

Let me first say that I believe the ASOIAF endgame is going to involve only two real "sides." Those wanting to destroy all mankind and those who seek to defend mankind. Some on the "enemy" side may be unwitting pawns. This colors my big picture understanding of the story as I believe the throne of Westeros is, in the end, small potatoes. If you want to find "the bad guys" who will be against mankind in the endgame you need to look at the those that exhibit some of the following traits:

Human Sacrifice
Blood Magic
Raising of the Dead

now on to theories....

1) not really a theory but a prediction: GRRM is going to tease us by having Victarion almost get revenge on Euron Greyjoy but FAIL. But then Theon Greyjoy, who is on a redemption character arc is going to kill Euron Crow's Eye LIKE A BOSS. He will finally gain the respect of the Ironborn, be elected by a King's Moot with Asha's support and lead the Ironborn to switch sides and be a major factor in the defeat of the enemy.

2) The main hero of the story is Jaime Lannister and the main villain is Bran Stark. GRRM threw us all off by having Jaime throw Bran out of the tower in Book 1. Jaime's the bad guy right!!?? Wrong. In the end we're going to wish Bran had died.

3a) Children of the Forest are evil. Bran is being deceived into helping them attempt to destroy mankind. The Children and the Others are allies. Bran will use greenseeing powers (COF have none) to lead the armies of the Others and their allies against mankind.

3b) The Great Other and R'hollor are one in the same. Melisandre is a pawn. Stannis will become the New Night King and will ally with the Others, the Children of the Forest, and the Faceless men to attempt to kill all mankind.

3c) The Faceless Men agenda is to kill every last man, woman, and child in the world and then kill themselves as they believe this is a good thing. They believe all men are suffering and it is a mercy to put them out of their misery. "All Men Must Die" is not a shrugging quip such as saying we all die one day. "All Men Must Die" is a goal. Varys is a faceless man and the young girl in the room when Kevan Lannister is murdered is Arya Stark.

4) Rhaegar Targaryean is alive. He is incognito as Mance Rayder. He saw himself as the Prince who was Promised and feels that he has to save mankind. The Prince who was Promised and Azor Ahai are not the same person. Rhaegar believed Aegon was AA but he is wrong. His attempt to get the Wildlings South is his attempt to save everyone. The man killed at the Trident was Ser Arthur Dayne. Ned learns the truth at the Tower of Joy and this is why Dayne's death is painful to him.

5) Ned's father conspired with Jon Arryn, Rhaegar and others (even Tywin who is now conveniently dead) to oust the Mad King and implement Rhaegar's plan for the coming war for the survival of mankind. Hot head older brother Brandon Stark kind of 17ed it all up.

6) The valonqar is the Hound. He will bring about Cersei's downfall because he, the little brother, will be the Faith's champion against Cersei's Champion Ser Robert Strong aka UnGregor Clegane. The Hound will kill the Mountain in single combat and doom Cersei. The Hound is a changed man and is still alive by the way, for those of you who didn't figure that out.

7) Jon Connington's "Aegon" is a fraud and is probably the son of Ashara Dayne who is Septa Lemor. It is possible he is still Rhaegar's son by Ashara though. Or Brandon Stark. But I think he is a Blackfyre. This forshadowed in the story about the wrought iron black dragon in the history of the Crossroads Inn.

8) Syrio Forel was captured by Mandon Moore and thrown into the black cells. He is Jaqen H'ghar.

9) Jojen Reed and Howland Reed are the same person. He is now dead which we'll learn in TWOW but GRRM is just 17ing with us with Howland's death. We'll still eventually learn more of the TOJ because of #4 above. Rhaegar was there and was one of the the "they" who found Ned still clutching Lyanna's body.

10) The words "Hodor" and "Other" are the same word. The name Hodor is the name of the great other (who is also R'hllor). Our beloved "Hodor" was traumatized by something that had to do with this and that is why "Hodor" or "Other" is the only word he says.

11) "Winter is Coming" is not a warning. It is a threat.

12) Jon was not stabbed at the end of ADWD. It was Ghost that was killed.

13) Jaime and Cersei are Targaryeans and are the children of the Mad King and Tywin's wife. This prima nocta is the true reason for the falling out between Tywin and the Mad King, although Tywin does not believe the children are the Mad King's. They look like Lannisters after all, but remember Tywin's wife was his cousin and also was a Lannister. The Targaryean seed is weak. Joffrey was a Targaryean after all. Remember that Targaryeans are either great or they are nutjobs. This explains sibling love tendency between Jaime and Cersei as well as Cersei and Joffrey being freaks.

14) Most of the Prophecies about Azor Ahai and the building of the Wall are bullsh*t. The whole history and lore of the wall and the war of the dawn are stories fabricated by: The Children of the Forest, who are purposely banished to the other side of the Wall. None of the men who later became "the Wildlings" were meant to be over there. Azor Ahai is not the same person as the Prince who was Promised. The Prince that was Promised is Theon Greyjoy or Jaime Lannister (I fluctuate between the two on this). Azor Ahai is actually a villain and is the "opposite" number to the Prince who was Promised. I theorize that he's Ramsey Snow with a slight chance of being Jon as a pawn of the enemy. As I've said before Mel, Stannis, and Bran are all of them deceived and are pawns of the enemy. Danaerys is a smokescreen for both Azor Ahai and the PTWP.

15) The Brotherhood has infiltrated Winterfell and is in cahoots with Wyman Manderly and other northern Lords to kick some Bolton and Frey a$$. These "cahoots" are called the Great Northern Conspiracy and is not my own theory but one others have convinced me of.

16) Benjen Stark has so many possibilites as to be mind boggling. I believe he was captured and taken to Mance, who revealed to Benjen that his true identity is Rhaegar Targaryean. Whatever Benjen is up to, it is something that Rhaegar has tasked him to do. Perhaps that is why I think he could also be the hooded man that recognizes Theon at Winterfell. After all, we already know that Mance/Rhaegar and the spearwives are at Winterfell as well. I personally wonder if he's not on Skaggos with Rickon and Osha. Some think he is Daario Naharis. I'm interested but not buying that one yet. Another that is tempting is that Quaithe = Lyanna Stark and whatever role she is playing has something to do with the plan Rickard Stark and Rhaegar hatched. Not quite there on that one yet but it is interesting. What if the reason he is posing as Daario is to try to root out more about Quaithe/Lyanna?

17) The horn that "brings down the wall" and the horn that "controls dragons" does the same thing. GRRM loves doing this cross cultural stuff. You've got to realize that some cultures and characters don't interact much and can be describing the same object, type of object, or person in their own way. By controlling dragons you bring down the wall with dragonfire. This is going to happen.

18) A faceless man killed Balon Greyjoy. Euron Crow's Eye paid for this murder with a dragon egg he found in the East. This is why Jaqen H'ghar (Syrio) has infiltrated the Citadel: To try to find how to make it hatch.

19) Viserys and Danaerys did not grow up in Essos. It was in Dorne (although they were told differently) and Doran knew of it and is part of a plot to restore the Targaryeans with Martell as the "second" family if you will.


Just to ruffle your feathers.... Danaerys, Tyrion, Bran, Stannis, UnCat, Arya and quite possibly even Jon... are all characters that we've been hoodwinked into rooting for who are actually going to find themselves on the enemy side in the endgame. They are going to become antagonists and/or villains. Bran, Stannis, Tyrion, UnCat and Arya are all headed somewhere dark. Danaerys will be a pawn more so than "evil" and Jon as well if he turns out wrong. I personally believe that Danaerys will be eaten by one of her dragons and then the sh*t is really gonna hit the fan.

Similarly, the Hound, Jaime, Theon, and Alliser Thorne are going to be our heroes in the end.

Littlefinger? Even I won't touch him. Littlefinger wants Sansa and the crown. If there is indeed a 3rd side in the endgame it is liable to be Littlefinger's "side."

[tenureplan]

I think you are WAY off on most of this, but know you are off on 3c. There's no way the girl was Arya. A sample chapter has been released that still puts Arya in Braavos where she marks another one off her list. That girl was just one of Varys' little birds.


ETA - It was Jon that was stabbed and he will warg into Ghost before he dies. That's why we had the opening chapter with a guy doing that.

[SheltonChoked]

I agree with tenure. I think you are way off on most of this.

I'm with you on items 1, 7, 10, 11, 15, 16, 17, and 18.

I'm not sure on 9, 12 or 13.

I think you are off on 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 14.

There is room for interpretation due to the unreliable narrators of the POV GRRM writes in. But History is written by the victors, the current history is the Children of the forest and the First Men defeated the Others and built the wall.

3b) The Great Other and R'hollor are one in the same.

I agree with this part. Melisandre Has no Idea what she is toying with. I'm not sure Stannis is the Night King, But Davos will sacrifice to save his king.

4) Rhaegar Targaryean is alive. He is incognito as Mance Rayder.

Maybe on the first part, but No way on the second. GRRM has a say on the casting and Mance look nothing like Rhaegar. And his great Uncle would recognize him.

6) The valonqar is the Hound.

The Hound is dead. Crow food Dead. Cercei gets killed by Jamie, to save the city/kingdom from a crazy power mad regent about to do something stupid, again.

8) Syrio Forel was captured by Mandon Moore and thrown into the black cells. He is Jaqen H'ghar.

I want to believe this, but I don't think it is true. The big mystery around Jaqen is "Who was he paid to kill?"

[tenureplan]

[QUOTE=SheltonChoked;202962]

The Hound is dead. Crow food Dead. Cercei gets killed by Jamie, to save the city/kingdom from a crazy power mad regent about to do something stupid, again.

While I agree that Jaime is the one that will kill Cercei, the Hound is very much alive and is digging graves on the Quiet Isle.

[BulldogBear]

Edited above to add (19). I forgot one.

[Cabo32]

I'm not agreeing with you on Bran being a villain. I do think that Jamie will one of the heroes because he will be the one that chokes cersi to death.

The more I read about the whole rhaegar/mance deal the more I think mance is actually Arthur dayne. Ned sent him to the wall after the battle of the TOJ was cut short due to the birth of Jon. Daynes life revolves around protecting the "king". Well once jon is born, Ned convinces dayne to take the black and he'll be able to protect him later down the road while Jon grows up in winterfell.

That also leads me to think that the faith will chose mance/dayne as they're champion against Robert strong. At the battle by combat mance/dayne will unveil DAWN and put a serious beat down on the mountain.

The emp is a targ, not the twins

[BulldogBear]

Just a quick note to muse with Shelton about Jaqen H'ghar.

I've wondered that myself though not at length because I've wondered if Syrio Forel was in fact Varys. GRRM likes to drop clues and hints but also red herring. So, Jaqen may have been there as part of some mission in the ambition of the Faceless Men. He might not have been there to kill anyone in particular but meet with Varys or perhaps deliver Euron's dragon egg. When Jaqen goes to the Citadel it doesn't seem to be to kill anyone in particular but to locate tightly kept information. So, accordingly perhaps he was not originally in KL for murder either. He may not have gone there as Jaqen but as Forel and found a recruit in the process. He also might have already been there a long time and changed to Forel as a way to get close to someone mentioned below. But after the failed coup he had to get out some way in the aftermath and couldn't do so as Syrio. So he changed his face and then leaving as a conscript for Night's Watch is the perfect cover.

So, I haven't mused about murder much but if he was there to murder somebody, it may have been Ned. Varys seems to be in charge of Faceless Men ambitions in KL and we know the last thing he wants is competent leadership. With Robert (the perfect apathetic king the FM want in charge) murdered by meddling Lannister ambitions they couldn't have an honorable man like Ned or Stannis running things. Well, then came the coup and Joffrey did the deed for him at Baelor. Just some off the cuff thoughts. Have you got any ideas on who the mark may have been if Jaqen was there for an assassination? Or was he successful? Is there some seemingly obscure death in the right time frame that we're not thinking of?

Still haven't decided which one to present to y'all in detail first. Some are very very long. I'm going to hold off a while on Azor Ahai because that's more presenting options as I have still not decided if I believe it's Ramsey or Jon (the 2 "evil" options) or if it's Theon or Jaime (the 2 "good" options). I'm leaning toward the Hound as the valonqar or Rhaegar lives. On the latter, I'm certain it's Mance though some think he's the tattered prince. There are just too many clues, parralells and forshadowing that lead to the conclusion that Rhaegar is Mance if he's still alive. Bear with me and be open minded. You'll be on the Rayder/Rhaegar train when I'm done.

Shelton again: regarding Arya at Kevan's murder. I've not read the Arya chapter so I may concede that she's not Arya after I read it. I just thought it was interesting. I HAVE heard some opinion's that think the time scale is deceptive at the end of ADWD and beginning of TWOW so she could still be both. I'll need to read up more on that. With that said, if the skinny girl is not Arya, who is she? GRRM doesn't waste many words. Why bother drawing attention to her if she's just a schmo that needs to eat more? Here's a freaky thought. Remember that I believe the Children of the Forest are plotting the downfall of mankind and have a weird alliance with Faceless Men at some point. They are often referred to just in ASOIAF as "The Children." In fact, Varys may have done just that in the epilogue to ADWD when he tells Kevan that he bore him no ill will and that he had to die "...for the realm. For the children." Just who's "realm" is Varys doing all this for? Some have even suggested that the freaky little "children" who stab Kevan are some form of COF. Not sure I believe that part and I don't wanna get into that too much as there is so much more to the COF as the real enemy theory. Why would Varys be plotting the downfall of man yet groom "Aegon" for kingship? That's covered elsewhere as well.

[War Machine Dawg]

I'm with you on Bran being evil. However, I don't think he'll be evil knowingly. He'll be a pawn using his green dreams and ability to warg conned into helping the COF without knowing about their alliance to the Others.

Entirely disagree about Jon being evil. I think he is the real hero of the story. I'm basing that off his parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna. Remember, there is a flashback/vision of Rhaegar talking about his son having the Song of Ice and Fire and being the PTWP. IF Jon's parents are truly R & L, then I think that makes him TPTWP. He gets the Ice part from his mother, Lyanna - a Northern Stark - Direwolf/North/Ice/WIC. And he gets Fire from Rhaegar - a Targaryen - Valyrian/Dragons/Fire. Plus, as a Stark, the blood of the First Men flows in his veins according to Ned. And we know that the First Men defeated the Others.

I do agree that Jaime is a hero and not a villain. As you point out, he's definitely on a redemption arc. He's become one of my favorite characters, actually. I don't know if he'll be the one to off Cersei or not, but he clearly won't defend her the way he would have pre-capture.

Don't think Theon is anything more than a pawn to convey other parts of the story. There's no way he becomes some heroic badass. He's physically incapable after what Ramsey has put him through. GRRM made it clear he's been flayed, can barely walk, and doesn't have many of his teeth left or unbroken. He might get pissed and stab someone to death, but he's not going to be able to seriously harm anyone outside of a "heat of the moment" killing.

Can't wait to hear your theories on Benjen and the Hound. I'd love for the Hound to be alive, but I don't think he is. I think he was intended solely to give Arya a different perspective on killing and further her journey towards becoming a badass assassin.

I can buy Cabo's theory that Mance might be Arthur Dayne, but I just don't see any way he's Rhaegar. Too many people saw Rhaegar die at Ruby Falls for me to believe it was anyone else.

I also think Dany is a major player. She'll find a way to control the dragons soon, whether it be with a dragon horn or learning the old Targaryen secrets. Hell, Drogon is already protecting her at the end of ADWD. She'll unite Essos, then move on Westeros to recapture the Iron Throne. Eventually she & Jon will meet, fall in love, and marry. This will preserve the purity of the Targaryen bloodline, assuming R + L = J. The marriage will also unite the two ultimate heroes, giving TPTWP control of both the Dragons and all the armies of Men.

Littlefinger interests the hell out of me. He definitely wants the Iron Throne, but I don't think he makes it out of the series alive. He'll train Sansa to be the perfect political player, then she'll have no need of him and off him somehow. Sansa will be a badass before this is over, I predict.

I have no clue what Varys' plan is. But I agree that his "Aegon" is an impostor of some form.

Anyway, that's just my musings. Definitely look forward to hearing your theories.

[Cabo32]

I can't believe you sticking to your guns regarding the Howland/jojen theory. Jojen is dead...Howland is alive. GRRM already said we would hear from Howland soon enough.

The only stark I see becoming evil is stoneheart...she just doesn't care and wants everyone dead.

Your theories are pretty amazing, though...I just don't agree with 3/4 of them..

Not gonna lie, about halfway through reading your theories I could have swore you we're gonna the "Ned stark is alive because varys had a faceless man swap places with him before the execution" theory

[War Machine Dawg]

I can't believe you sticking to your guns regarding the Howland/jojen theory. Jojen is dead...Howland is alive. GRRM already said we would hear from Howland soon enough.

The only stark I see becoming evil is stoneheart...she just doesn't care and wants everyone dead.

Your theories are pretty amazing, though...I just don't agree with 3/4 of them..

Not gonna lie, about halfway through reading your theories I could have swore you we're gonna the "Ned stark is alive because varys had a faceless man swap places with him before the execution" theory

There actually IS a theory that Ned is alive and one of the key players working for Dany. I don't buy it, as we clearly see Ned get his head chopped off on tv, and GRRM has content approval rights. They've obviously changed a few things, but they won't be making any changes that will affect the outcome. It's also why I've hopped off the theory that Robb's wife is alive, pregnant, and hiding out with the Blackfish after he escapes Riverrun. Offing the made-for-GoT preggers wife pretty much tells me even IF book version wife is alive & pregnant, it has virtually no major impact on the story.

[Cabo32]

Yeah. As much as you don't want to see a character like Ned get killed off, it had to happen. It's what made this story interesting.

You talk ab littlefinger...I think he dies in a very drastic way. I think varys knows that littlefingers plot was to get Ned to KL and betray him. A beheadding of LF would be great

[BulldogBear]

Ned is the one character, if you had to pick only one, that must remain dead for any of the story to make sense. Bringing him back would be juvenile. In some direct or indirect way his death is the flashpoint for every fire.

Personally I want to see Littlefinger transition form rotten stinky human piece of sheit to rotten stinky piece of dragon sheit.

[BulldogBear]

Now that you've got me back to thinking of Baelish, I thinking that he's got to encounter UnCat at some point. If not, GRRM needs to be ashamed of himself for not pulling that off somehow. So, here's a thought... what does he think of her now that she's all green and stuff? I wonder if UnCat will be the one to off him, especially if she picks up on how he's using Sansa.

[bgdog]

It's also why I've hopped off the theory that Robb's wife is alive, pregnant, and hiding out with the Blackfish after he escapes Riverrun. Offing the made-for-GoT preggers wife pretty much tells me even IF book version wife is alive & pregnant, it has virtually no major impact on the story.

I always took the straight stomach stabbing in the tv show as GRRM adding that as part of cannon and putting that particular theory to bed

[BoomBoom]

*cracks knuckles* you're in my wheelhouse now, son.......

Tyrion will achieve his endgoal, inherit the Rock, and only then learn that the gold mines have run dry and the gold vaults are empty. He'll learn he's dead broke, laugh and pour some wine. the TV show foreshadowed this with Tywin confirming the Rock is broke and the mines are dry.

interesting that the fingers Theon has left are the ones needed for archery, the martial skill he is known for.

"what is dead may never die, but rises again stronger" or something. Theon will be executed (in front of a Weirwood tree) and rise reborn, made whole.

R+L=J. In the first book, Joffrey scoffs at Jon and states that a bastard cannot sit at table with a Prince. He didn't.

maybe Benjen is the Night's King? makes more sense than Stannis.

that the TV show did not give Arya the BOSS scene with Polliver (or whoever) that she has in the WoW preview just proves (as if it was needed by this point) that the TV show does not have a grand plan, they are just groping from season to season without thinking ahead. they skipped Lady Stoneheart for gawdssakkes! don't care what they have to say about ANY theory.

Rheagar is dead. no way no one thought to look at who was in the armor. too many people knew him too. though, for argument's sake, who at the Wall would recognize him or Dayne? Benjen for one. probably Thorne. Melissandre, though i guess she could be in on it. Stannis or his wife, most likely. any number of her noble knights.

Howland Reed is in his castle, still banging his smoking hot wife Ashara. The rest of Robb's army is there too, except the ones sent to notify Jon that he is Rob's heir. He spurned Stannis making him KotN, he will not spurn his brother (cousin). He will be saved magically by Mel (hopefully not as unJon). Can't decide if he will awaken in time to see the Wall fall, or if he will be declared dead and his Watch ended, freeing him to accept his heirship to Rob.

12 is interesting. i'm going to have to pull out the book and read it with that in mind. i think the bit about Longclaw sticking though contradicts the theory.

A dragon may have many riders, but each dragonrider may only ride one dragon. I wonder what this means for Starks that have 'ridden' their direwolves? does this mean SANSA will be a dragonrider?

The Horn of Joramun FAR predates the Valyrians. I think it allows the Others to control their wights.

19 is interesting. perhaps Dany finds the house with the red door in Dorne, and settles there at the end (as one of the few places not destroyed by the Others).

Lemore is not Ashara, Tyrion would have described her differently. The White Fawn maybe, she had been a septa i believe?

Nymeria's army will munch on Freys. I'd love to see Walder live to see all his offspring die, but Black Walder will inherit, that's been set up too much. perhaps Black Walder will get tired of waiting, and stage a coup? That would be fitting, for Walder to be killed by one of his (numerous) offspring.

Moqourro (sp?) is playing Victarion. There is no way he'd be for bending the dragons to Victarion's will. In fact, since in the PatQ the Targs didn't even use horns, i bet all the horn does is call the dragons for a meal.

[SheltonChoked]

Just got around to being able to reply to this.

I can see how you got to Vary's being in league with the COF and the Faceless Men, but I'm having trouble with it. I could see one, but not both. And the more I think about it the more I like the faceless men idea.

I also agree that Arya will have a much larger role as an assassin in the books to come.

Jaqen's mark. It doesn't fit the show, but in the books it could have been Tywin. Or maybe he was sent by the Iron Bank to enforce a future threat. Or he was brought in by Ned to train Arya.

[Cabo32]

Here's one that I came across the other day

Meera reed and job snow are twins. Meera is the 3rd head of the dragon

Meera and jon resemble one another, they were born in the same year

Meera and Lyana share the same personality characteristics

Howland owes Lyana for saving his butt for the knight at the laughing tree

It makes more sense that she would die giving birth to twins. Ned took jon and Howland took meera.

Ned, Howland and..Arthur dayne all witnessed this happen

Ned took jon to winterfell...Howland took meera to greywater and Arthur dayne decided to take the black because he felt dishonored by the fact that he failed to protect his best friend, rhaegar..

After hearing about the actor that plays theon say that jon snow family is similar to that of Star Wars, it made me think that jon(Luke) and meeta(leia) are long lost twins and mance rayder is not rhaegar(darth vader) but Arthur dayne(Obi-wann).

Bulldog bear...you're theory on rhaegar actually being mance just got me thinking that it could be dayne...one thing that got me thinking about it was the fight between jon and mance(disguised as rattle shirt)...mance pretty much manhandles him...jon states that mance swung his sword(a great sword) faster than jon could swing his..

Not too many of the characters could swing a big sword like that other than the sword of morning..

Just another crackpot theory

[War Machine Dawg]

Bear, where you at? Football season is rapidly approaching and you haven't expanded on any of your theories yet. We're waiting.

[BulldogBear]

Bear, where you at? Football season is rapidly approaching and you haven't expanded on any of your theories yet. We're waiting.

Been battling fleas in our yard and house. Preachermatt would tell me that's why you don't have inside pets! Also 2 weeks of camp and an anniversary. Busy times. I'll hit on some of it before kickoff!

[War Machine Dawg]

Been battling fleas in our yard and house. Preachermatt would tell me that's why you don't have inside pets! Also 2 weeks of camp and an anniversary. Busy times. I'll hit on some of it before kickoff!

Ugh, no fun. And gotta agree with Preacher. Pets are for outside. No big rush, just felt like busting your balls a little.