Game of Thrones?

[War Machine Dawg]

LOVED IT!!! He has grown on me a lot from reading the books, though it's hard for me to say favorite. It's more like I have a top six in no particular order:

(1) The Hound
(1) Jaime -his tale has grown in the telling as JRRT might say
(1) Tyrion -though less and less as I read ADWD
(1) Berrick Dondarrion
(1) Barristan Selmy -that old man will kick your 17ing butt
(1) Jojen Reed -because there is no Jojen Reed...he's really Howland Reed and that's why no one know where the 17 he is or what the 17 he's doing and why the 17 he's supposedly sitting on his butt doing nothing when all the world is in chaos. If anyone's interested I'll put all the clues to that together in a thread or post sometime. I think we'll find that out for sure in TWOW

I'd be damn interested to hear that theory.

[War Machine Dawg]

i know, we've only seen the new Daario once, but he seems to be a much better actor. Plus he doesn't have that "I really want to punch this guy in the face"...face. I just don't see them re-casting Arya, she did a good job of acting more adult in the first episode. Hell they may change up the story with her, like the hound..I could be wrong though, but I could've swore that the fight at the Inn was where Arya leaves the hound without giving him a merciful death.

Side note/question: concerning the show; Is the Hound anyone else's new favorite character? That last scene was the tits. "I understand that if anymore words come pouring out of your **** mouth, I'm going to have to eat every ****ing chicken in this room"..

The fight at the inn is what starts his death arc, if in fact he truly died. But it wasn't immediate. The wounds he received during that fight became infected and festered. Arya contemplated killing him, but then decided against it and just left him. We'll see if they go there or alter it somewhat.

As for Arya, yes, the actor is solid and can handle a more "grown up" approach to the character. But the things she'll be doing later can't exactly be done by a 12-year-old on TV. They're going to be forced to age her in the not too distant future.

The scene with The Hound was awesome. He's definitely grown on me, as he did in the books. But I'm kinda like Bulldog Bear, not sure I can choose just one favorite character. Also, anyone else think there might be something to the theory that Sam is actually Aegon Targaryen?

[BulldogBear]

The fight at the inn is what starts his death arc, if in fact he truly died. But it wasn't immediate. The wounds he received during that fight became infected and festered. Arya contemplated killing him, but then decided against it and just left him. We'll see if they go there or alter it somewhat.

As for Arya, yes, the actor is solid and can handle a more "grown up" approach to the character. But the things she'll be doing later can't exactly be done by a 12-year-old on TV. They're going to be forced to age her in the not too distant future.

The scene with The Hound was awesome. He's definitely grown on me, as he did in the books. But I'm kinda like Bulldog Bear, not sure I can choose just one favorite character. Also, anyone else think there might be something to the theory that Sam is actually Aegon Targaryen?

The actress, Maisie Williams, is 17 years old or will be in a five days. Her birth date was 15 April 1997. She'll be able to do whatever soon enough. The question might be what they are allowed to portray a young CHARACTER doing (that may have been what you meant). They already aged everyone 3 years from in the book as you know. I think it was largely for Danaerys. They couldn't have a 13 year old CHARACTER getting doggie styled by a grown man on tv I suppose.

[Cabo32]

I'd be damn interested to hear that theory.

yep...i want to hear this as well. Im ready for howland to be introduced, for reasons i've mentioned before...details about the fight at the tower of joy and to finally learn that jon is rhaegars son

[BulldogBear]

Should we have some kind of spoiler tag on this thread? I wouldn't even know how to do such a thing. It's evolved to include way past the current tv series timeline.

[Political Hack]

King Jeffrey getting off'd is going to make the show much, much less annoying.

[BulldogBear]

King Jeffrey getting off'd is going to make the show much, much less annoying.

I knew you'd like that! But, Ramsey more than makes up for it. Joffrey was a spoiled prick, Ramsey...oh Ramsey is a true sociopath and psychopath for that matter! It's called the Purple Wedding. You know royalty and all but Joffrey also turns purple Bwahahahahahahahahahahah! Burn in all seven hells King Douche!

[War Machine Dawg]

Standing Slow Clap for Joffrey's Death! Been waiting a long damn time for that little bastard to get offed.

[War Machine Dawg]

yep...i want to hear this as well. Im ready for howland to be introduced, for reasons i've mentioned before...details about the fight at the tower of joy and to finally learn that jon is rhaegars son

C'mon, Bear. Why do you think Jojen is really Howland?

[fishwater99]

Standing Slow Clap for Joffrey's Death! Been waiting a long damn time for that little bastard to get offed.

I would have much rather seen him die by the sword, but I'll take it...

[BulldogBear]

I would have much rather seen him die by the sword, but I'll take it...

Yes, I did too, but I will say that in the book he seemed to suffer more. I think I remember that it took him 5 minutes or more to die.

[BulldogBear]

C'mon, Bear. Why do you think Jojen is really Howland?

I will get on that in the next day or two. Patience Iago.

[BulldogBear]

I think I need a Tshirt with Joffrey's face on it and the caption: "Hurry up! This pie is dry!"

[BulldogBear]

!!!!!SPOILER ALERT - MAY CONTAIN INFO FROM BOOKS NOT SHOWN IN TV SERIES YET OR AT ALL - SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

Okay Bulldragons, put on your tinfoil hats. This is why I theorize that Howland Reed is posing as his "son."


I could probably do this better when I re-read the series to get ready for release of TWOW but here goes. Jojen is odd. It is likewise odd that we haven't seen Howland Reed at all. The country is in turmoil. As close a friend as HR was to Ned, something isn't quite what it seems. I think that Jojen is Howland Reed, not Howland Reed's son. Howland Reed knew that Bran needs to get to the three-eyed crow. He is the one who had the dream of the fall of Winterfell in the book, not Bran. How is Jojen, a 12-13 year old boy teaching Bran how to warg? Jojen himself never alludes to having any warging or actual greenseeing abilities. He just says he has greendreams. The Crannogmen are mysteroius, not a whole lot is known about them. They are known to be small and who knows how they age or how much it shows. They may even be intermingled with Children of the Forest. The area they live in was flooded by the COF in an attempt to cut off the North from the rest of Westeros during their war with the first men. They may not be wargs themselves (The COF aren't) but have a load of ancient knowledge. Meera doesn't seem to have them but then she may not be a crannogman. There is another theory that suggest R+L = J&M!!!! Twins, seperated at birth ala Luke and Leia. Sometimes you can take clues from the tv series to learn things in the books. It's a different medium so you have to present info in different ways. The producers DO know the whole story as told them by GRRM in case of his premature death after all. Meera and Jon look similar in the show. But that's neither here nor there for this theory.

Frequently, Jojen is said to seem older and wiser than a 12-13 year old. He is awfully mature and solemn in general. Every Bran chapter in which Jojen is present, we see this, especially in ACOK and ASOS, although in ADWD he's perhaps more sullen, weary, and sick. Bran notices twice that Old Nan called Jojen "Little Grandfather." This is in ACOK, Bran-4 and in ASOS, Bran-1. Bran refers to JR as "Little Grandfather" in his own thoughts as well. In ASOS, Brand -1, Bran also states that Jojen could scare almost anyone, saying how Meera wasn't scared of anyone, except Jojen. This seems a little off. A 12-13 year old (not named Joffrey Barathister) that could scare anybody? Jojen just doesn't seem like a 12-13 year old boy, not even a mature one. In ACOK, Bran-5, Theon takes Winterfell. Jojen is not afraid as a young boy should be when the "Vikings" come to raid and pillage. Instead his eyes are full of sorrow. He is not afraid, despite their situation. Even knowing this was coming as he did, I would still think a boy would feel somewhat frightened. Jojen exhibits a strange absence of anxiety/fear when meeting the direwolves for the first time. Bran observes this while seeing through Summer's eyes in ACOK, Bran-3. Even as the direwolves are growling and threatening, JR isn't afraid. Meera, the older sibling, is. Jojen once calls Bran a summer child, even though he's only 3-4 years older himself.

Let us look at Meera's constant obedience of Jojen. Meera is the older sibling, about four years IIRC, and yet Jojen's word is law to her. In ASOS, Bran-3, Bran thinks, "Jojen had his way; he always did," after arguing with Meera about having a fire at Queenscrown. In ADWD, Bran-1, Meera obeys Jojen again when she wants to go back with Coldhands to help against the men that the ravens have warned him of. He tells her no in no uncertain terms, and so she doesn't go. Jojen is something more than just Meera's younger brother. Why would she always do what Jojen tells her, unless maybe he's her father?

In ASOS, Bran-2, Meera tells Bran of the knight of the Laughing Tree at the Great Tournament at Harrenhal, where Prince Rhaegar crowns Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty. Ned was there, Howland Reed was there, and he may have been said knight if it wasn't Lyanna in disguise. That whole situation begins the road to the TOJ. Before, during, and after the telling, Jojen is genuinely surprised that Bran never heard this tale from Ned himself. He asks 3 times to clarify that Ned never told the story. Why would he feel this was such an important story for Bran to have been told before? The events in the tale occurred before Jojen would have supposedly born but it seems very important to him personally. Jojen even knows the name AND nickname of a mountain man that rode in the war with his father. Meera, Bran, and Jojen are speaking of the Houses of the Mountains. Bran mentions the Wulls in response to a question asked by Meera about a Wull riding with her father. Jojen says, "Theo Wull," and then, "Buckets, they called him." Jojen knows such specifics about a man that rode with their father during a war that occurred years before he was born? This is a small matter but Meera specifically asks about a man who rode with their father during the war. He may have done great deeds of course but that wasn't her question. Nor was it of a man who was close friends with their father, but someone who only rode with him. It just seems like an oddly specific thing for a son to know.

Jojen should be healthy, young and fit, yet the long grueling journey has the hardest physical toll on him of those in the party. This seems more consistant with a middle aged man. Who knows how much they age in appearance. He could also be using a glamour like the ones Melisandre uses. This could make him appear young. Remember they are reclusive and mysterious. Meera "carries the weapons" but that doesn't mean JR wouldn't use them. Perhaps he does not want to give away his identity by being way too skilled than an awkward preteen boy ought to be. HR/JR saw the fall of Winterfell in a greendream. His known presence would draw attention. Nobody at Winterfell at the time would likely have seen him before. And who the 17 sends their kids to do a man's job. Get them north of the wall? Really? What the heck kind of Dad is that or at least what's he doing that's so all-fired important as to have another gravely important task (to all of their survival against the real enemy) delegated to a couple of kids?

The mystery of Howland Reed's whereabouts has been right under our nose the whole time.

"He who conceals himself is revealed."

[BulldogBear]

GRRM actually wrote s4e2 as he always does one per season. Here's a link to an interview regarding GRRM's commentary on the episode and Joffrey's demise. There's a historical tidbit for us also.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/13/ge...offrey-killed/

[War Machine Dawg]

Don't know if GRRM has ever talked about it or not, but Joffrey is loosely based on Caligula. Not very hard to see the parallels between the two. Evil psychotic bastards known for sadism who died from poisoning.

[War Machine Dawg]

Bear, that's one hell of a theory. You've obviously put a lot of thought into it and make some compelling points. Also really like the way you're backing it up with specific evidence from the books. I think the best point you made, and something I've wondered myself, is why Howland would send his kids to take Bran north to the three-eyed raven. You also make a good point that Howland could be using a glamour to conceal his age, which I would consider more likely than decreased aging, just based on the way the world that GRRM has constructed works.

The other point you make that's compelling to me is Jojen's recounting of the Great Tournament at Harrenhal in ASoS - Bran 2. It was pretty explicitly stated by Ned in AGoT that Rhaegar choosing Lyanna over Elia at the tournament was the spark that started fire of Robert's Rebellion. Jojen did seem to be very surprised Bran hadn't heard the story before, but I took it as he & Meera had heard it from Howland so many teams he was shocked that Ned wouldn't have told Bran & his siblings. But if Ned was sworn to keep the secret of Jon's true parentage by Lyanna, then it makes sense why he'd never tell the story. It opens up the can of worms that's Robert's Rebellion and the TOJ.

I'll have to re-read this a couple more times and think about it some more, but you've laid out a pretty convincing case. Some parts of it definitely ring true, at least to me.

[tcdog70]

there are two chapters from the next book out on the World Wide Web. I read them. Wish martin would go ahead and finish. There is a whole lot shit coming down the pike.people that haven't read the Books are going to be shocked

[Cabo32]

Ok bear, like I said before man...pass whatever it is you're smoking!!! Ha..just kidding man..but damn, that's one detailed theory..but I've got a few counterpoints if you would indulge...1.) the question to why Ned never talked about Roberts rebellion to bran or his other kids: I think he did this so he could avoid any possible questions that would come up concerning Johns mother. Ned made a promise to his sister, and he is/was known as an honest man. So it's my theory that he never wanted to lie to anyone concerning who john snow belongs to. I don't remember the direct quote from the book, but recently I rewatched the series and the last time Ned sees john and john asks about his mother, Ned says you may not have my name but you have my blood. He wasn't lying, he was beating around the bush. Side note: Ned tells Jon that the next time I see you we will talk about your mother. I think Ned is waiting to convince his good buddy Robert that all targs aren't bad, bc you know Robert would kill Jon if he knew that Jon was rhaegars son.
2.) why would howland reed send his children?
Ok, so think about it..his daughter is 15 and the son is 14. Ned and Robert were 16 and lead a battle to take over a king. So I'm thinking that howland is willing to send his children at their current age to help bran find the three eyed crow
Well...I'm done...
Also bear..throw some more of your theories out every now and again...that was a damn good read

[tcdog70]

https://web.archive.org/web/20131028...nds-of-winter/

Here is sample chapter of new book