BSR on Tommy John

So, Hadad interviewed one of the leading experts on Tommy Johns and the stats are eye-opening. Major programs have 1 Tommy John surgery every three years on average. We have seven...seven...in 15 months. That's insane.

With that being said, it's got to be something fundamentally that we are doing in practice to cause this. It's NOT a coincidence.

Incidentally the expert said that 20% don't recover from TJ surgery. We have 7 with TJ so I guess it's time to roll the dice and see who makes it back.

To me, the most frustrating part of our situation is that 4 or 5 of our surgeries occurred in the past 2 months, I believe. Which means we essentially lose 2 years of the player instead of just 1.

Well the culprit is gone. We are just dealing with the aftermath of it.

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Originally Posted by missouridawg

To me, the most frustrating part of our situation is that 4 or 5 of our surgeries occurred in the past 2 months, I believe. Which means we essentially lose 2 years of the player instead of just 1.

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It makes it even harder with the scholarship limits in baseball. You can't afford to have someone on your roster recovering. So if someone redshirts then they don't count toward the 35 man roster but is their scholarship still count towards the 11.7? whate

It will be interesting to see things go at Arkansas for Wes.

I'm curious if the problem wasn't necessarily Wes' system but maybe because we went from Butch's conservative system and immediately dove into Wes' aggressive system and then went back down Henderson's conservative system.

I'm curious if Wes being hired late in the year last year didn't give our pitchers time "work" into it. Maybe we were like an out of shape man that tried to run a marathon too fast. There's nothing wrong with running a marathon but running one before your ready could be problematic. The running one and backing the program all the way down to Henderson's style may not have helped either.

Just saying, let's keep an eye on Arkansas. Not just this year but long term. See if their TJs go up over the next 3-5 years or fall. I know that's boring, but it's the best perspective to view this if you actually want the best answer.

If you going to blame Wes, that's fine, but also admit that he came in at a funny time of year and followed a coach with a completely different style.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

It will be interesting to see things go at Arkansas for Wes.

I'm curious if the problem wasn't necessarily Wes' system but maybe because we went from Butch's conservative system and immediately dove into Wes' aggressive system and then went back down Henderson's conservative system.

I'm curious if Wes being hired late in the year last year didn't give our pitchers time "work" into it. Maybe we were like an out of shape man that tried to run a marathon too fast. There's nothing wrong with running a marathon but running one before your ready could be problematic. The running one and backing the program all the way down to Henderson's style may not have helped either.

Just saying, let's keep an eye on Arkansas. Not just this year but long term. See if their TJs go up over the next 3-5 years or fall. I know that's boring, but it's the best perspective to view this if you actually want the best answer.

If you going to blame Wes, that's fine, but also admit that he came in at a funny time of year and followed a coach with a completely different style.

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They already have 3. We had a thread on this earlier.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

It will be interesting to see things go at Arkansas for Wes.

I'm curious if the problem wasn't necessarily Wes' system but maybe because we went from Butch's conservative system and immediately dove into Wes' aggressive system and then went back down Henderson's conservative system.

I'm curious if Wes being hired late in the year last year didn't give our pitchers time "work" into it. Maybe we were like an out of shape man that tried to run a marathon too fast. There's nothing wrong with running a marathon but running one before your ready could be problematic. The running one and backing the program all the way down to Henderson's style may not have helped either.

Just saying, let's keep an eye on Arkansas. Not just this year but long term. See if their TJs go up over the next 3-5 years or fall. I know that's boring, but it's the best perspective to view this if you actually want the best answer.

If you going to blame Wes, that's fine, but also admit that he came in at a funny time of year and followed a coach with a completely different style.

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Might be the case but Wes is like the trainer pushing the guy to run fast until he blows out his knee then can't run the marathon. Wes had to know how hard to push someone if you are going to use a somewhat dangerous training method.

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Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe

Might be the case but Wes is like the trainer pushing the guy to run fast until he blows out his knee then can't run the marathon. Wes had to know how hard to push someone if you are going to use a somewhat dangerous training method.

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He most likely pushed too hard. It's a delicate balance. I was using weighted balls with my 9th graders pre season. Starting having too many sore arms and elbows and their recovery times were getting longer so I cut them out and we did more weights instead. Arm problems went away. At the college level, you don't have the luxury of doing that kind of stuff because you have a vision of where kids need to be in your system and when you have a philosophy you subscribe to you rarely deviate from it.

I'm not sure if he planned on being here longer than one year when he took the job but I would imagine to catch up for lost time he probably pushed too much.

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Originally Posted by MetEdDawg

He most likely pushed too hard. It's a delicate balance. I was using weighted balls with my 9th graders pre season. Starting having too many sore arms and elbows and their recovery times were getting longer so I cut them out and we did more weights instead. Arm problems went away. At the college level, you don't have the luxury of doing that kind of stuff because you have a vision of where kids need to be in your system and when you have a philosophy you subscribe to you rarely deviate from it.

I'm not sure if he planned on being here longer than one year when he took the job but I would imagine to catch up for lost time he probably pushed too much.

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I believe this is the best perspective. Wes didn't have these problems anywhere else he coached. Something definitely went wrong here though and its looking like he may have pushed to hard.

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Originally Posted by MetEdDawg

He most likely pushed too hard. It's a delicate balance. I was using weighted balls with my 9th graders pre season. Starting having too many sore arms and elbows and their recovery times were getting longer so I cut them out and we did more weights instead. Arm problems went away. At the college level, you don't have the luxury of doing that kind of stuff because you have a vision of where kids need to be in your system and when you have a philosophy you subscribe to you rarely deviate from it.

I'm not sure if he planned on being here longer than one year when he took the job but I would imagine to catch up for lost time he probably pushed too much.

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I believe this is the best perspective. Wes didn't have these problems anywhere else he coached. Something definitely went wrong here though and its looking like he may have pushed to hard.

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Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe

Might be the case but Wes is like the trainer pushing the guy to run fast until he blows out his knee then can't run the marathon. Wes had to know how hard to push someone if you are going to use a somewhat dangerous training method.

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Agreed, it Johnson's fault either way. If you bring in a new pitching methodology to a staff you are unfamiliar with then you have to use extreme caution. Like the guy said on BSR, if you start training a pitcher a different way then they are going to be using muscle forces in a different way and stress areas that might not have been used to stress previously. All of that has to be monitored by the new pitching coach into understanding the soreness a pitcher is feeling when asked to do different things than what he had been doing. Sounds to me like Wes just went full out with his style with no real thought of long term effects. And of course he got out of Dodge before most of the fallout occurred.

You guys realize that marze and ford never did anything for Johnson. Smith and James had there's done in February. You blaming that on Johnson? I think one of the big reasons is whoever the genius is that decides to send these guys to summer ball after they throw a lot of innings. A pitcher shouldn't throw in summer unless they got no innings that year. Pitching in fall, spring, and summer have more of a factor to me that Johnson and his weighted balls

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Originally Posted by hailstate17

You guys realize that marze and ford never did anything for Johnson. Smith and James had there's done in February. You blaming that on Johnson? I think one of the big reasons is whoever the genius is that decides to send these guys to summer ball after they throw a lot of innings. A pitcher shouldn't throw in summer unless they got no innings that year. Pitching in fall, spring, and summer have more of a factor to me that Johnson and his weighted balls

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Sorry but your reasoning doesn't even begin to explain the disproportionate number of TJ cases specific to MSU. Unless someone can tell me how our program has been demanding our pitchers to throw so many more innings over a complete calendar year than the majority of other college programs then I totally reject your reasoning. We have had a problem over the past year specific to us that is WAY out of the norm for college programs. As far as I know all college pitchers throw some in summer leagues if healthy, not just guys from MSU.

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Originally Posted by MarketingBully

They already have 3. We had a thread on this earlier.

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Campbell is the only legit one. McKinney has been hurt since high school and Scroggins doesn't count. He was a position player that was just a thrower with bad mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe

It makes it even harder with the scholarship limits in baseball. You can't afford to have someone on your roster recovering. So if someone redshirts then they don't count toward the 35 man roster but is their scholarship still count towards the 11.7? whate

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If someone is on scholarship they count against the 35 period. They can redshirt but they still count. The only person that wouldn't count is a non scholarship guy that they redshirt. In our case we started the year w a 32 man roster in essence. Now we are down to 29. Subtract, marrero and that's 28. Self is hurt, presently, that's 27.

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Originally Posted by MarketingBully

Well the culprit is gone. We are just dealing with the aftermath of it.

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We hope he was the problem.. Are you sure.. Time will tell..

I wonder if Johnson didn't get caught up in his own "velocity" hype and over did things when he got here. We made a big hoopla about how this guy was going to increase velocity blah blah blah and he probably felt some pressure to live up to that hype.

ETA: As bad as it sounds, we damn sure better be pinning all of this on Johnson when we are on the recruiting trail.

When you start pushing arms to throw hard, you're going to have problems. Not that many kids are made to throw 95 mph and pushing them to do it, with or without weighted balls, is going to tear up some arms.

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Originally Posted by MarketingBully

Well the culprit is gone. We are just dealing with the aftermath of it.

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Yup

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

I believe this is the best perspective. Wes didn't have these problems anywhere else he coached. Something definitely went wrong here though and its looking like he may have pushed to hard.

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It's possible he changed his coaching techniques after he left Dallas Baptist or maybe just a year b/f he left Dallas Baptist. Weighted ball training really started gaining traction the past couple of years.

The problem is travel baseball. We go to these large showcase tournaments to scout these pitchers. These guys literally may throw 80 pitches for one team one day take a day off and travel to another tournament and throw for another team the next day.

This stuff goes on from the time they are 9 or 10 now. They never stop.

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Originally Posted by WinningIsRelentless

The problem is travel baseball. We go to these large showcase tournaments to scout these pitchers. These guys literally may throw 80 pitches for one team one day take a day off and travel to another tournament and throw for another team the next day.

This stuff goes on from the time they are 9 or 10 now. They never stop.

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1 every 3 years at other programs. Are we the only program recruiting travel ball players?

He either made up that stat, or it is skewed by northern teams. I guarantee you almost everyone in the sec has at least one guy out this year if not more

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

1 every 3 years at other programs. Are we the only program recruiting travel ball players?

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No, but I'd be willing to guess the elite arms throw more than the lesser arms and it's a random guess but I'd think the southeast b/c of the better weather does more travel ball than some other areas.

Would be interesting to see its split out to top 100 RPI programs and regionally.

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Originally Posted by hailstate17

He either made up that stat, or it is skewed by northern teams. I guarantee you almost everyone in the sec has at least one guy out this year if not more

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Heck just between us and ARK it's basically one per SEC team.

Also be curious to go back and see of the top 3 rounds of so MLB draft picks how many of the pitchers have needed TJ. Maybe go back 10 years.

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Originally Posted by WinningIsRelentless

The problem is travel baseball. We go to these large showcase tournaments to scout these pitchers. These guys literally may throw 80 pitches for one team one day take a day off and travel to another tournament and throw for another team the next day.

This stuff goes on from the time they are 9 or 10 now. They never stop.

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Those are the kids that aren't playing legit travel ball. A legit organization doesn't allow that crap. Daddy ball chasing a trophy and a scholarship that'll never happen might do, but legit organizations don't allow their kids to do that.

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Originally Posted by hailstate17

He either made up that stat, or it is skewed by northern teams. I guarantee you almost everyone in the sec has at least one guy out this year if not more

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Exactly, I have no doubt that pitchers are throwing too much over a calendar year and I have no doubt that travel ball contributes to the problem but none of that explains specifically what is happening with the MSU program because those are issues that impact every college program all over the country. Folks on here trying to use that as the sole issue and basically saying its a run of bad luck for us are missing the point. If we had 2 or 3 in a year THAT would be bad luck. When you have 7 or 8 then something specific is going on to exacerbate the problem and the most likely cause of the possible causes out there is or was the Wes Johnson coaching technique putting stress on arms.

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Originally Posted by maroonmania

Exactly, I have no doubt that pitchers are throwing too much over a calendar year and I have no doubt that travel ball contributes to the problem but none of that explains specifically what is happening with the MSU program because those are issues that impact every college program all over the country. Folks on here trying to use that as the sole issue and basically saying its a run of bad luck for us are missing the point. If we had 2 or 3 in a year THAT would be bad luck. When you have 7 or 8 then something specific is going on to exacerbate the problem and the most likely cause of the possible causes out there is or was the Wes Johnson coaching technique putting stress on arms.

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Yep. 2-3 is a coincidence. 7-8 is not a coincidence. When you have that many injuries, you are doing something very wrong. A great analogy was used on the B&B show this AM. If you take a rubber band and stretch it to its max limit enough times, the band will break. This is mostly a wear and tear issue, but when you get an 18 year old kid and stress max velocity to him, something is going to happen and most of the time, that something isn't good.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Those are the kids that aren't playing legit travel ball. A legit organization doesn't allow that crap. Daddy ball chasing a trophy and a scholarship that'll never happen might do, but legit organizations don't allow their kids to do that.

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Most of the elite teams bring in pitchers for each tournament and they aren't the same pitchers for each tournament,

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

If someone is on scholarship they count against the 35 period. They can redshirt but they still count. The only person that wouldn't count is a non scholarship guy that they redshirt. In our case we started the year w a 32 man roster in essence. Now we are down to 29. Subtract, marrero and that's 28. Self is hurt, presently, that's 27.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Homedawg again.

My guess it is a mix of a bunch of different variables. Some bad luck, some kids that were already headed towards TJ, overuse at a young age, and possibly a little bit of coaching involved. It sucks but hopefully we figure out what the issue is and get it fixed.

People like to put this on Wes but it seems like we've had a high number of TJ surgeries for a few years now, some of them before Wes got here. This year of abnormally high cases has really brought it to the spotlight but I'm not sure he is the culprit.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Those are the kids that aren't playing legit travel ball. A legit organization doesn't allow that crap. Daddy ball chasing a trophy and a scholarship that'll never happen might do, but legit organizations don't allow their kids to do that.

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This is absolutely correct.

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Originally Posted by maroonmania

Agreed, it Johnson's fault either way. If you bring in a new pitching methodology to a staff you are unfamiliar with then you have to use extreme caution. Like the guy said on BSR, if you start training a pitcher a different way then they are going to be using muscle forces in a different way and stress areas that might not have been used to stress previously. All of that has to be monitored by the new pitching coach into understanding the soreness a pitcher is feeling when asked to do different things than what he had been doing. Sounds to me like Wes just went full out with his style with no real thought of long term effects. And of course he got out of Dodge before most of the fallout occurred.

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Johnson found out early he was only here one year. When the guys worked out with weighted balls he was not with them thus some arm angles fall, no one watching for issues, no one talking to player, etc. Heard pretty straight Johnson only worked with the starting pitchers after he knew he was leaving. Go back and look at video of fall ball and then compare to spring - pitchers arm slots changed because of weighted balls and no one managing them. When issues begin in elbow pitchers start to lose control - probably why some of them started looking off last spring/summer before Velo started dropping. Another coach that utilizes weighted ball program said they are not meant to be used but 3-4 days a week and only for short term before season (4-6) weeks. This guys coaches at Texas Baseball Ranch in summer. No wonder we had so many go down. May have some more. It's hard for a pitcher to make the call - he may try all kinds of alternative treatments trying to avoid surgery.

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Originally Posted by NewDawg

Johnson found out early he was only here one year. When the guys worked out with weighted balls he was not with them thus some arm angles fall, no one watching for issues, no one talking to player, etc. Heard pretty straight Johnson only worked with the starting pitchers after he knew he was leaving. Go back and look at video of fall ball and then compare to spring - pitchers arm slots changed because of weighted balls and no one managing them. When issues begin in elbow pitchers start to lose control - probably why some of them started looking off last spring/summer before Velo started dropping. Another coach that utilizes weighted ball program said they are not meant to be used but 3-4 days a week and only for short term before season (4-6) weeks. This guys coaches at Texas Baseball Ranch in summer. No wonder we had so many go down. May have some more. It's hard for a pitcher to make the call - he may try all kinds of alternative treatments trying to avoid surgery.

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If this is true then honestly both Wes and our S&C guy are at fault. Wes for not monitoring our S&C guy and our S&C guy for being ignorant and not going to Wes to check in and make sure things were right.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

If this is true then honestly both Wes and our S&C guy are at fault. Wes for not monitoring our S&C guy and our S&C guy for being ignorant and not going to Wes to check in and make sure things were right.

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I would agree. Sad thing is. I hear there may be two more battling elbow problems and trying different treatments. I'm not sure what to say about the hitting. I know we lost a lot of great guys. But we have got to find a way for some guys to get hits.

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Originally Posted by NewDawg

I would agree. Sad thing is. I hear there may be two more battling elbow problems and trying different treatments. I'm not sure what to say about the hitting. I know we lost a lot of great guys. But we have got to find a way for some guys to get hits.

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The hitting is due to several factors- the biggest being inexperience, but there are others like recruiting and I think trying to adjust to Cann's style which is causing some of them to press and be overaggressive. I can explain the rationale behind it- but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for Mississippi State baseball. We should not have "young" teams as often as we do- freshmen and sophomores in the SEC usually doesn't lead to wins. We've also over relied on JUCO's and that has been very hit or miss- and if they miss, it causes huge holes in the lineup.

I'm glad we hired someone from LSU who has some MLB experience- those are two programs, if you consider MLB a program, that we should be emulating and should have been emulating the entire time. We sign these classes that are good on paper- and then MLB comes along and takes the 3-4 best ones. But instead of having another solid prospect ready to take that player's spot in the class, we go out and sign some JUCO guy. Cann needs to do a better job of evaluating the signability of our recruits and having better contingency plans in place if one of them signs than Cohen did. I don't expect to get all of our recruits in- but I do expect a higher percentage of them to come under Cann. And if they don't hopefully Cann has a better answer than some random JUCO OF from Texas. If we can do that and also start to retain more of our upperclassmen the hitting will improve.

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Originally Posted by NewDawg

I would agree. Sad thing is. I hear there may be two more battling elbow problems and trying different treatments. I'm not sure what to say about the hitting. I know we lost a lot of great guys. But we have got to find a way for some guys to get hits.

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Doesn't surprise me. We just may not have many good hitters.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

The hitting is due to several factors- the biggest being inexperience, but there are others like recruiting and I think trying to adjust to Cann's style which is causing some of them to press and be overaggressive. I can explain the rationale behind it- but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for Mississippi State baseball. We should not have "young" teams as often as we do- freshmen and sophomores in the SEC usually doesn't lead to wins. We've also over relied on JUCO's and that has been very hit or miss- and if they miss, it causes huge holes in the lineup.

I'm glad we hired someone from LSU who has some MLB experience- those are two programs, if you consider MLB a program, that we should be emulating and should have been emulating the entire time. We sign these classes that are good on paper- and then MLB comes along and takes the 3-4 best ones. But instead of having another solid prospect ready to take that player's spot in the class, we go out and sign some JUCO guy. Cann needs to do a better job of evaluating the signability of our recruits and having better contingency plans in place if one of them signs than Cohen did. I don't expect to get all of our recruits in- but I do expect a higher percentage of them to come under Cann. And if they don't hopefully Cann has a better answer than some random JUCO OF from Texas. If we can do that and also start to retain more of our upperclassmen the hitting will improve.

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