Not one but 2, 1-0 games in the cws. You need to be able to hit, sure, but damn well better be able to pitch.
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Not one but 2, 1-0 games in the cws. You need to be able to hit, sure, but damn well better be able to pitch.
Unfortunately for us, we can't do either
If you're loaded with pitching in college you can win big. I wasn't near as pissed with the offense this year as the pitching or lack thereof. No ****ing excuse for the trash Butch threw out there. Again I say..get your ****ing shit together Butch.
There's also 2 games where the winner scored double digit runs. Fix our hitting and the pitching can give up 7-8 runs and we'll still win if we can score.
*yes I know it's ridiculous to advocate giving up 7-8 runs, but IMO it's not less ridiculous than saying small ball is the best kinda offense if you have good pitching like trying to win 3-2 with minimal margin of error is advisable*
My stance is pitching and defense wins championships the majority of the time. Defense usually travels better than offense. Not to say a great hitting team can't do it with average pitching but a lot of those teams also got good pitching late to help push them over. Because let's face it we have seen at any given point a pitcher who is in the zone negate at hitting team even if he is on a bad team. That is the one position that on a given day, that team is great because of great pitching. But more to the point you need really good pitching depth and solid bullpen. At some point you will need that pen to step in and deliver. Teams that have that depth can outlast a lot of teams.
ETA. I am a guy who has spent the majority of his time on hitting side of the sport.
You don't understand how it works.
You absolutely HAVE TO be able to stop the other team on offense and match the other teams pitcher and allow your team a chance to score runs. You can not rely on winning slugfests every night and baseball and expect to win a championship. A bad hitting team with an elite ace pitcher is more than likely going to beat a great hitting team with a below average pitcher.
Seems like a hitter that can hit a HR would be more important since 1 hit could win the game.
One hitter hitting .400, as phenomenal as that is, is just one guy. If he comes up in the right situations I don't ever have to let him swing the bat. Great pitching that has negated the other 8 hitters can pitch around the one great hitter. And he doesn't make a team a great hitting club by himself. He is valuable but one great hitter won't win you as many games as a one dominate pitcher.
Why are you assuming the defense gives him something to hit? A great pitching preformance can negate an entire offense. Even one great hitter.
You guys are looking at this all wrong. A great offense doesn't have to have one superstar phenomenal hitter. It doesn't hurt but a great offense is one who collectively can hit for avg, some power, but absolutely the most important part is clutch hitting. That is what makes a great offense. Not one guy. Conversely on any given night one guy, the pitcher, who is in the zone can negate that offense and win 75% or more of the battles he had that night.
Why are you assuming the defense gives him something to hit? A great pitching preformance can negate an entire offense. Even one great hitter.
You guys are looking at this all wrong. A great offense doesn't have to have one superstar phenomenal hitter. It doesn't hurt but a great offense is one who collectively can hit for avg, some power, but absolutely the most important part is clutch hitting. That is what makes a great offense. Not one guy. Conversely on any given night one guy, the pitcher, who is in the zone can negate that offense and win 75% or more of the battles he had that night.
Eta. Look at how many pitchers were drafted in top rounds last week and tell me what position is considered the most important.
I think this argument is crazy. You've gotta have pitching AND hitting to get to the cws. Picks 1, 2, and 20 were positional players that are still playing. When we made championship series, we had a 1st round positional player. Having a big time bat makes your whole lineup better
This.
I also believe the criticism of Butch Thompson is unwarranted considering that he has fielded some of the best team ERAs in the country in the previous 3 seasons.
I do lean towards putting more of an emphasis on pitching though, and when you look at that championship series vs UCLA, we got beat by their pitching. Our guys couldn't lay off the high fast ball.
One thing I think people need to understand. The days of "Gorilla Ball" are over. The BBCOR standards on the bats buried that style. I'm glad too, because that style of play was never about the skill of the player, but more about what kind of trampoline effect you could get on the bats.
I would also add that most of the power hitters in college baseball have to be developed. The legitimate power guys out of high school mostly end up playing pro ball.
Yes you need both but you know as well as I do that dominate pitching wins championships more so than a great offense. From MLB (while may have drafted great college position players the vast majority of top picks were pitchers) on down to little league. Strong pitching negates a strong offense. Not saying you don't try to have both.
This is absurd!!
Good pitching beats good hitting...period. Give me 2 studs on the mound and I'll ride those arms all the way to Omaha, and prolly much further. If anyone legitimately thinks that a good offense with a 5+ ERA pitching staff is a path to a championship then they are either stupid or are completely out of touch with the reality of the sport.
Teams in Omaha this year:
Pitching(ERA):
2 TCU
10 Cal St. Fullerton
11 LSU
13 Vanderbilt
27 Florida
28 Miami (FL)
55 Virginia
104 Arkansas
Average - #31.25
Hitting(BA):
4 LSU
7 Miami (FL)
26 Florida
50 Vanderbilt
65 Arkansas
74 TCU
150 Virginia
211 Cal St. Fullerton
Average - #73.37
It paints a pretty clear picture of which is more important.
Maybe if Houston, Reynolds, and Hudson started the year like they finished it. I say, false
I take that back. If Cohen abused college pitchers like most college coaches, we might have. Those 2 studs, better be complete game studs though bc our pen was garbage. They couldn't hold a 5-run lead against our rival in the 9th. How many other late collapses were there?
When ucla rode their pitching to a natty, it was more than 2 starters
It was 2 elite starters and an elite closer. Those 3 guys threw 60% of their total innings on the year and nearly every inning while in Omaha. It's a myth that it takes pitching depth to win while in Omaha. The only time in postseason baseball where pitching depth is really key is a situation where you fall into the loser's bracket of a regional. It plays in the SEC tourney, but it's not like that matters much one way or another. UCLA had an average 3rd starter and a bad midweek guy. And 2 pretty good middle relievers that threw about 40 innings each.
For reference, their closer threw about as many innings that year as Austin Sexton threw for us this year. UCLA is as distinct as any case ever of riding 3 arms to a title.
And also, your comment was "take 2 elite starters and surround them with our pen and bats" -- which already makes the assumption that two of them improved to elite status. If we have 2 Strattonesque jr arms -- we are probably going to host and have a great chance to be CWS bound.
"2 stud pitchers surrounded by our bullpen" is more than 2 starters as well, huh?
No one anywhere in this thread said "it only takes 2 starters to go to Omaha". You were talking about adding 2 stud starters to what we have otherwise. You add 2 Strattons to what we otherwise have -- I'll book my room in Omaha right now.
Couldn't you argue that we had 2 stud starters (Stratton and graveman in '12) and didn't make it out of regional?
Graveman was not what I would call a stud in 2012, and even as such, we had the second best pitching staff in the country in 2012. That was a terrible hitting team notably worse across the board than our current team and that, along with getting shipped to one of the least pitcher-friendly parks in the country, was what prevented our advancement.
8 of the top 10 pitching teams in the country this year did not make it to Omaha. That doesn't even remotely mean that hitting is more important than pitching. 7 of the 8 were at least borderline elite pitching staffs. 4 of the 8 were borderline elite hitting teams.
Graveman is one of my all time favorite dawgs. He was a battler and I love his stuff and how he used...said multiple times on here that his stuff would translate great to the pro game...BUT he was not a stud at the college level IMO.
To change it up slightly even, think about if we'd had lindgren and holder this year with everything else being equal. Those guys in the pen with the same rotation most likely get us to a regional.
Hunter Renfroe hit a HR to put us in the title game.
Looks like you have a minimum of quality pitching to get there but also hitting. Unless you have 2 Elite pitchers and an elite closer you have to have the bats.
UCLA won the title but had 2 all American starters. We have had 1 in the 7 years Cohen has been here, Stratton.
We cobbled together an elite pitching staff in 2013 but replace Renfroe and Frazier with our usual and we might not make it to Omaha.
On this:
1. Lovelady is elite back there. We've got to see improvement at the plate. Wouldn't be shocked to see Marrero factor here either. Marrero most likely isn't a "normal" freshman situation given his upbringing...
2. I think 3 of the 5 in the Cape step up next year. At least. None have shown a closer mentality yet to me though. So, this is a notable concern. But it hasn't been all that long ago that Holder was elite in this role for us as a freshman. So, there is precedence there for it to happen under this staff. We've got a number of freshmen with the stuff to fill this role. Will they have the mental side? Yet to be seen...
3. Hard to consider this an absolute must when we went to Omaha last time with Sam Frost and Alex Detz over there. I think Reynolds is better than both of those defensively now, while certainly not elite...
25% of the field in Omaha is made up of literally below average hitting teams. One that is way below average.