At the end of this year we will have 5 losing seasons in the last 10 years, that's not debatable. At what point are you in danger of not being an "elite" program? It's past time for some urgency around this program.
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At the end of this year we will have 5 losing seasons in the last 10 years, that's not debatable. At what point are you in danger of not being an "elite" program? It's past time for some urgency around this program.
I wouldn't say we are an elite program, and haven't been since before 2000. We could return to be an elite program, but it would take a steady climb to get to something sustainable.
If Cohen had stayed as a coach, we may be there now.
Now this all changes if we wouldn't have swung at every high fastball we saw against UCLA for two games.
I know this isn't popular, but we haven't been an elite program since about 1990. Should have let Polk leave when he tried to in '92 to run USA Baseball and his war with the NCAA began. His focus wasn't on program building and it put us behind while LSU built a powerhouse. We have never truly recovered to the late '70s to early '90s level since.
We're an elite fan base, not program. But, we're still a top 20 program. Probably top 15. Hire a legit coach and we're top 5-10. Our last three head coaches screwed us over a bit.
I wouldn't say Cohen screwed us over, but didn't build a solid enough program to able to be resilient. It was still something of a work in progress. I don't know that there are a lot of programs that could handle having what will end up being 4 coaches in 2 years and not suffer for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Agreed. Good assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
If it is true that we are in on either Tadlock or McDonnell, then that is elite company. Our drought has been painfully long though. That is a valid argument for the "we are no longer elite" crowd. hard to argue that point. The thing that makes us elite though is that once we are winning like we are capable of, we will once again have by far, the most awesome crowds (again) in college baseball and the atmosphere at DNF will be unmatched and it won't even be close. MSU baseball is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. That cannot be questioned.
I think this is accurate... depends on what you consider elite. Also, all coaches screw you over a bit. They either failed and had to be fired, they took a job somewhere else or just quit the sport. It would be an extremely rare situation where a coach would leave without any negative impact at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Ray Tanner says "Hello".... hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by sleepy dawg
He absolutely screwed us over with piss poor recruiting and leaving at a terrible time. Wasn't intentional but still hurt us nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
Polk 2.0 should've never even been a consideration. And really, I should've said the last 4 HCs because Mac took off and was stupid. Cohen really hurt us getting out when he did. He lost his focus and then stuck us with a HC with no experience and poon addiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy dawg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Yep... rare situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TNDawg35
Great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bully13
We are like LSU football pre-Saban or maybe bama between stallings and Saban. Make the right hire and we could be a dominant program, perhaps THE dominant program. Much like bama commits more $$$ to football than anyone else, we have the fan support to commit financially to baseball in a way that literally no one else in the country would be willing to match (for the P5 programs capable of matching) or capable of matching (for the non-P5 programs that are good at baseball like cal st Fullerton and coastal Carolina types).
And yet some of y'all are worried about paying $1.5M+ for the right coach. If we think that coach can come in and turn the program around like Saban did at LSU and at bama, $1.5M+ is a bargain and would more than pay for itself.
We aren't an Elite program. It's debatable if we ever have been. We do have elite fan support for baseball. Just my two cents as someone who isn't a baseball fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy Jenkins
BingoQuote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
We are the Tennessee football of college baseball, but without a natty
We have some of the same dynamics, issues, challenges, strengths, & weaknesses.
I say that as most times it's easier to see yourself from the outside-in vs the inside out.
Excellent postQuote:
Originally Posted by Bully13
This is actually a good comparisonQuote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Hope you are right because your reputation is only one generation deep and we are getting close to reaching a tipping point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bully13
TRUTH!Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
I think we have a higher ceiling than 2018 Tennessee football tbh. Mainly because the competition in baseball isn't near what it is in football, and while neyland is huge, it's not particularly nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
if we get Tadlock or McDonnell, that will officially light the fuse. book it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy Jenkins
I went to the FL game the year they won the natty. seats were pretty high and I've never felt so cramped in my life and I weighed 145 back then. how some of those big and overweight folks get their asses to fit in those tiny seats I'll never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
we are without a doubt at a fork in the road. If Cohen makes the right hire we are back in business.....if he makes a mediocre hire like the Cann fiasco then we are screwed for a decade...
MSU is a 55-million-dollar fanbase with Cleveland Brown level management
When people that know me personally see my fan-hood to MSU baseball they ask me how many titles we have? That's a painful question.
Don't interpret this as burning JC as the AD today...I'm mostly talking Templeton
I don't really blame Cohen for cann. We weren't pulling a proven HC in November after Cohen took the AD gig. Cann appeared to be a good coach with a promising future after 2017. Stacked recruiting classes, a super regional appearance, best stadium in the country incoming, we were all stoked for the future under cann. No one could predict that he wouldn't be able to keep his dick in his pants and would be more interested in sexting his side piece instead of coaching the team heading into year 2. Cohen now has an opportunity to make a hire in the normal course of coaching turnover (vs. a hire after fall practice), and I can't imagine there will be a more desirable gig out there come the end of the season than MSU. I understand why he hired an unknown giving the timing before, but there no excuse to not go get a guy with a proven track record this time around because timing ain't an excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggie_Style
I do think the right hire will turn us around overnight. There is no excuse to not at least be a regional team next year, and by 2020 be competing for a national seed/sec title/CWS spot, and that should be the status quo moving forward. Otherwise why even invest in the facilities like we have if we are going to merely expect a 3 year cycle of losing/mediocre season > regional > maybe CWS > start over. We should be able to restock, not rebuild, and the right hire will have our down years as 2 seeds in a regional, not a losing record.
We SHOULD be better in baseball than we are. Baseball has the most resources relatively speaking of all of the sports programs- unfortunately I'd have to say it has also been arguably the worst managed.
It all started when we decided to bring Polk back again. Pick a year- 1992 or 2002. I'm starting with 2002 for this post. Polk gradually ran our program into the ground and created a non-competitive soft environment. We had that lingering around for seven years. Now we're to the 10 years that the OP is about....
Years 1-2 were massive rebuild years from the seven years that Polk was here. We had to essentially start from scratch to modernize our recruiting. On top of that we had a lot of our own fans against Cohen not to mention Ole Miss, USM, and Ron Polk himself among others. Somehow by 2011 we made a SR. A lot of it was because while we lacked elite talent we had changed our image from soft to hard nosed and tough. The next two years- SEC Tournament Championship and then the high mark of the Cohen era the CWS Finals.
Then for some reason our players let their success get to their head and while we made a regional in 2014 we had the third losing season the next year in 2015. I'm assuming that around this time was when Cohen started to think about moving to administration.
2016 we made a comeback and won the SEC but the craziness that goes on to this day had started- Butch left in the offseason, we hired Wes and then pitchers started to get hurt. Mingione left in the offseason and then Cohen moved up to AD and we hired Cann. On top of it all we were building a new stadium causing a lot of challenges with practice and a long road schedule looming.
2017 was a good year as we made a SR and it looked like we had a star coach in the making. And then we had his scandal occur which is where we are now. So, to recap:
2009- losing season Thanks Ron!
2010- losing season Thanks Ron!
2011- SR
2012- SEC Tournament Champs
2013- CWS Finals
2014- Regionals
2015- WTF Cohen?
2016- SEC Champs/SR
2017- SR
2018- WTF Cann? Henderson-ing.
So, if you look at it we actually have four losing seasons the last ten assuming we have a losing season this year. The rest of the seasons have been for the most part good though- and certainly at a level of minimum expectation. And that for me is a SR appearance.
What we have very obviously lacked is stability. And that's why it is best for us to start over with a new staff and everything because while this year sucks I don't think we are so far gone where a new coach wouldn't be able to come in and turn things around within a year or two of hire. We need to find someone that can get elite talent and also at the same time instill toughness in our team because right now we are soft again. I think it happens this offseason but we'll see.
Cohen is certainly partially to blame. If we have the interest that we allegedly do now I guarantee that we would have had the same interest in our job and a much larger pool to draw from than we did in November of 2016 by going through 2017 with Henderson as the interim coach and then hiring someone elite in the offseason.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
No elite HC is going to leave a HC job in November after fall practice. Just not happening. Sure, we could've maybe mailed in the 2017 season with Henderson as interim and gone with a full search at the end of the season, but I don't fault Cohen for going an getting a guy who appeared to be a rising star (and who produced on the field in 2017 beyond all our expectations). The off field stuff was unpredictable (unless there were known extramarital affairs before and we overlooked them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Obviously I agree that no elite coach is going to join us in November. But if Cohen is right about the interest in our job it tells me that he either 1. underestimated the potential of our job or 2. he took a needless chance. What we did would be like Alabama hiring Hugh Freeze coming off of being an OC somewhere when they could have had Saban or Urban Meyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Well, as much potential as we have in baseball, we aren't bama in football. It'd be like if Doug Petersen stepped down at Washington in June, and instead of going with an interim HC (in a season where they hope to make another playoff run), the hire a top notch coordinator. The coordinator gets them to a NY6 bowl (~equivalent of a SR) and everyone is stoked for the future. Cohen probably thought we still had a chance to be good in 2017 and going with an interim he wasn't committed too either leads to throwing away a season or if we were good, putting us in an awkward position of not giving the permanent gig to an interim we aren't excited about (and probably ripped in the media for it and potentially turning off coaches who perceive us having unrealistic expectations if we don't want the interim who just took us to a SR or even just a regional). It was a calculated risk that appeared to be paying off until events we could not possibly anticipate went down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
To me, 2015 is 2/3 due to "WTF Cohen" and at least 1/3 due to changing of the seams on the ball. The leadership and/or chemistry on the 2014-2015 teams dropped off 2013. Add the seam change that made pitchers like Ross Mitchell completely ineffective and you get what I remember as the year of why-didn't-you-turn-off-the-game-before-the-inevitable-8th-inning-meltdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
^ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Actually, both baseball and men's basketball have taken a slide back in the last 10 years. Vic's success in women's basketball has helped ease the pain in men's basketball, but that doesn't erase the fact we have a uphill battle in both sports, but its doable. Football has eased some of the pain due to the clout you gain in football by being part of the SEC. Again, when you compare the football team and its success against top 25 opponents over the past 10 years, we are still looking up trying to compete with top 25 teams. Mullen did a lot at MSU, but we still proved we aren't quiet there yet. I'm hoping JoMo leads us forward to sustaining our place in the top 25 to top 20.
That stretch looks more like Auburn football than TN football. Look at Auburn from 2010 to now. Only difference is they won their championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
I agree....Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
If we score an elite level coach like is being speculated, it shows again how we are viewed across the baseball community. We might be "down" as a program..but we can get back up pretty quick if an elite level coach comes in.. stays an elite coach and doesn't fizzle out.. and stays with us for at least 5 years. I think we get back in the championship game again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bully13;922561[B