Pretty soon these steroird users are going to be seen touring with Pete Rose. Congrats to Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Ivan Rodriguez for making it.
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Pretty soon these steroird users are going to be seen touring with Pete Rose. Congrats to Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Ivan Rodriguez for making it.
Chipper and andruw up next... good luck to 2 of my all time favorites
Pretty absurd that Bagwell and Pudge were elected and not Bonds and Clemens. All 4 of them were big users.
At this point, it seems that Bonds and Clemens are being punished for being the best steroid era players and thus the face of the era while just as heavy users that weren't as good get a pass.
Hear,hear my good man! Chipper my all time favorite, he's first ballot for sure. Don't think Andruw gets in. Shame that his career petered out a little to early. He beat himself up running into fences and diving around and the injuries took their toll on his body. I know I'm old but Hank Aaron is my hr champ not bonds. Hank did it right and is a classy man!
Bagwell and Pudge both used PED's. But they weren't..... wait for it..... targets of the so called steroid investigation. I'd say Bagwell took HGH before Bonds or anyone else. Just like with politics, the media makes or breaks a person unless you take to twitter.
The media has ruined the Hall of Fame and why they shouldn't be allowed to be the sole group that picks the inductees. They have no clue how hard it is to hit a ball or locate pitches for strikes with or without PEDs. They also have no clue how many guys they have inducted that have done things that aren't always above board.
Baseball is a joke.
Screw Clemens and bonds...but since pudge and bagwell get in then I think eventually bonds and Clemens get in. Clemens PED use is why he did a lot of what he did, and why the astros beat the braves in 05 nlds. Bonds was a HOF player before using but how do you let him stand up there as the "home run champ" when it's an illegitimate record.
The one that is really getting screwed with all of this is Fred mcgriff. Smoltz said it last nite...if your gonna reward the users then you definitely have to reward the guys with the numbers that didn't use.
75% of the players during that era were on something. If it wasn't steroids or PED's it was AMPs ... Bottom line is Clemens and Bonds were and will always be two of the best to play the game. It is unfortunate, but I don't think they will ever get in. Dumb a*** shouldn't have gotten caught or shouldn't have used in the first place. Clemens was one of my favorite pitchers to watch growing up.
Baseball players have been using drugs to enhance their performance for decades. Before steroids, it was amphetamines and nobody holds a grudge against those players or keeps them out of the Hall.
Seems kinda silly to single out Bonds, Clemens, McGwire for something lots of other Hall of Farmers did.
Exactly. Amps are still used heavily. In the minor leagues there is one drug test a season. Most of that stuff is wiped under the table. Amps will get you a 50 game suspension. The test is supposed to be random but, you generally know when it is coming up and that stuff is in and out of your system pretty quick. Now once you have failed a test they will test that player at random. Most organizations have a 3 strike policy on the other substances and you never hear about people failing for those as they are wiped under the rug unless they fail 3 times which usually by the second you are cut unless you are a high $$/ big time prospect. They basically tell you that it is better if you fail for heroin than Amps because it can be handled internally and it doesn't hurt the organization's image.
I wish they would let them all use PED's. Would be much more exciting. The most fun I ever had watching baseball was during the steroid era.
FREE PETE ROSE
Please list the reason he is the greatest hitter ever.
He was a great hitter no doubt...but his accomplishment that would put him at the top were ALL enhanced by steroid use. Therefore I cannot put him ahead of many guys that didn't use. Again, the bad part is he would already have been in on the first ballot if he never used. His inflated numbers wouldn't be as gawdy but he'd be thought of as a great all around player.
Eh eventually a pitcher was going to get killed on the mound. It still could happen but there were balls exiting bats at 130+ MPH you don't see the exit velocities quite as high now. Most of the guys who were using were doing it to sustain their career and last longer. It did improve performance but it really helped them play longer more than anything. It may have helped Bonds hit for power but the dude could straight up rake regardless, It didn't improve his eyes and hands. Same with pitchers, it doesn't make you throw all that much harder but it allows you to carry your same velocity later into the ball game and recover quicker.
List your guys that didn't use that you would put ahead of him. I also don't think Bonds was the greatest ever but the argument can be made that he was and would have definitely been up there had he not taken steroids. He hit at a career clip of .298 with over 500 stolen bags and almost 2000 RBIs.
Put your hate aside for 11 minutes and just watch. Barry Bonds is the GOAT!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kasaxBLWgo
What were his power and RBI avgs before using? Those numbers don't add up to "greatest hitter of all time". And stolen bags don't make you a good hitter.
Ted Williams is the greatest of all time. He hit for avg and power. 521career HR with some of his peak years spent in military service of WWII and Korea. Great hitter, great American
DiMaggio, Aaron, Ruth,are all up there. Rose, mantle, mays are next tier along with some old old school guys like Cobb.
Bonds had great numbers in the 90s but didn't start putting up all time greatest numbers until 2000. The same time his body began changing. Age 35-39 seasons he averaged 51 HR and 108 RBI. THAT is 100% due to steroids. Like was stated earlier, longevity and sustained numbers later into career are steroid hallmarks.
Williams had a great power year at age 38 w/38 HR but that was a bit of an outlier later in his career. Also career batting avg is not even close. Williams hit below .300 one time and that was at age 40. Plus, if in the 3 years he missed for WWII you add in his average HR totals from the previous and post 4 years he would have 100 more HR.
There may be some debate over the top 5 or 10 but really is none for the greatest hitter of all time.
Problem with you discrediting every one of Bonds great years is that it was never proven that he took steroids leaving the burden of proof in baseball's hands not in Bonds hands. Him passing every piss test was his burden of proof that he passed every time so now if you want to kill a man you gotta prove he did it. Just like a murder trial.
Also let's say he did take steroids for arguments sake. You act like he was the only one. His numbers dwarf the rest of the steroid era players numbers. You think none of the pitchers throwing him the ball took steroids? He doesn't have an edge when everyone else has the same edge as him. (for the record I do think Bonds took steroids but that doesn't matter when it hasn't been proven he did just like it doesn't matter I think OJ killed Nicole. Gotta prove it. It's that whole "Innocent till proven guilty" thing that our entire legal system is based off of.
Who doesn't think bonds used? Everybody knows he used. The proof is his body.
His numbers don't dwarf everybody else! Take a look at Sosa and McGwire during their peak using years. Check out palmeiro and A Rod. There are others but that off the top of my head.
Pitchers did use...but it didn't help them as much on the mound. It helped them get on the mound and stay on the mound. (Such as Clemens in 05 NLDS.) I'm not picking bonds out of everybody else, I'm including him in with all users. They cheated...end of story.
He was great and a first ballot guy before using, and I think he'll end up there. But his single season and career HR records are bogus. Everybody knows that. And id be willing to bet the fact that he holds those records plays into your thinking of him as the greatest.
And that is why I said I don't think he is the greatest of all time just that he could be in the conversation. I also don't think you can compare hitters from different generations straight up. In Bond's era he is arguably the best. From 90-00 he had over 100 RBIs just about every season and I would consider SB a somewhat important stat when comparing hitters. To have SB you have to get on base and getting on base is a part of hitting no matter how you reached base. Knowing the K zone and having a high ob % is just as important if not more important than batting average. He also averaged around 100 runs scored from 86-2000 which is pretty dang impressive.
If you can't see a gigantic marked difference in bonds body from 98 to 2000 then I can't help you and you're reasoning on his career makes more since to me now. Hell his hat sized increased drastically in his mid 30s!!!
All players mature and fill out in their 20s but the Guys you mentioned never had as drastic a body change late in their career like bonds.
You're missing the point anyway. You said you believe he used...do you believe he would have been the single season and all time HR leader without using?
I admit one of the hardest things to do in sports is to hit a baseball. Barry Bonds definitely is not the best hitter ever.
Pete Rose, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Roger Hornsby... The list could go along way before Barry is mentioned. Most Homeruns don't make you the best hitter
You have lost your mind if you don't think steroids led to a chunk of those HRs. Ill even take in to account for sake of argument.. lets say they did not effect his power at all.. they most certainly prolonged his career much further than missing out on 5 years of production. He would have retired quite a bit earlier. And saying Ken Griffey Jr did steroids is laughable he didn't gain 40 pounds of muscle seemingly overnight. No way bonds hits 70 homers in a season without roids. What he did was impressive no doubt. But he would not have done it without juicing. There are guys now that are better true straight up hitters than Bonds and arent coming close to 70+ HR. IMO what made Bonds special was his ability to get on base, steal bags, and hit for a decent average. He was a complete player with a good mix of power and speed. Had he not done roids he would have already been in the HOF and not because of his power at the end of his career.
Since we will just keep running in circles here let me ask y'all something. In your opinion do you think MLB and Bud Selig encouraged steroid use to bring fans back with homeruns right after the strike season? Did they turn their back to it when Sosa and McGwire were going after Maris's record? Don't punish Bonds for being the best during the timeframe he was forced to play in. It's not his fault his direct competition was doing it before him. His livelihood and wallet were directly influenced by home many homeruns he could hit. What kinda choice is it for Bonds when McGwire, Canseco, Sosa etc are getting monster contracts because they are hitting lots of homeruns? Don't take it and maybe you don't get an extra $200 million. You're talking about fierce competitors here. When their direct competition is winning while taking steroids they can either keep up or potentially be out a job in MLB. Everyone is every sport was taking steroids during the 90's. Picking and choosing who gets to be in the HOF is a ****ing joke. Put everyone of them in the HOF and put a giant message about steroids and the steroid era all around the timeframe. This picking and choosing on who was clean and who wasn't is total bullshit. It can't be fixed it can't be made right. Put everyone of them into the HOF. It was baseball's fault for encouraging it anyways.